So be it…

18 Responses to “So be it…”

1. Jon on August 24th, 2009 at 6:09 pm

   “Athiesm…don’t be a slave to your end.” It’s a nice thought – but if one follows the logic of that thought through, it is actually an argument against athiesm. Athiests, in all likelihood, will spend eternity apart from God – burning in Hell, slaves to their pride and foolishness. So, I think the video says it well, but it falls short of completing a worth sentence. Don’t be a slave to your end – Turn to God!

2. 40 Year Old Atheist on August 24th, 2009 at 6:12 pm

   Blah, blah blah – you’ll go to hell. Blah blah blah. Sell your fear somewhere else, Jon. It has no effect here.

3. P.J. on August 24th, 2009 at 8:07 pm

   Jon, as the t-shirt so succinctly puts it: “It’s your Hell—YOU burn in it!”

4. Lab Kat on August 24th, 2009 at 8:50 pm

   Jon – I hate to disappoint you, but we atheists don’t believe in hell. Therefore, we get out on a technicality.
    

5. Paul on August 24th, 2009 at 9:19 pm

   That was a very well done production. I liked it.

6. Renshia on August 24th, 2009 at 9:46 pm

   “spend eternity apart from God – burning in Hell”
   Yeah that all the good you and your god are good for.
   Threats and intimidation..
   Now I feel I need to scrape the goo off my feet.
   But that was a great video.  You really should have listened to the whole thing it was talking right to you.

7. Jon on August 25th, 2009 at 8:48 am

   40 Year Old, PJ, LabKat & Renshia — Chill out.  Relax.  I’m not threatening you.  I’m not trying to intimidate you.  I’m not trying to instill fear in you.  I am just pointing out the irony of the video.  LabKat – if a criminal doesn’t believe in jail, it doesn’t mean they get out on a technicality.  They just have a rude awakening when they find out that it really does exist.  PJ – it isn’t “my” hell.  I didn’t create it, and hopefully, I won’t be there and neither will you.

8. Renshia on August 25th, 2009 at 11:29 am

   “it isn’t “my” hell.  I didn’t create it,”
   No you didn’t, but you don’t seem to have a problem propagating the fear and intimidation of it.
   Tell you what you want to talk about hell, give us evidence of it’s existence. Have you been there?  Have you seen it?  Biblical account has no value, is only considered part of the fairytale, so it doesn’t count as evidence.
   Until you have and can give first hand evidence of it keep your fantasy life to yourself.

9. Jon on August 25th, 2009 at 12:03 pm

   Renshia – As I said in my previous comment, I am not trying to intimidate you or instill fear in you.  I am simply expressing my worldview, which is exactly what you are doing and exactly what 40YearOld Athiest is doing.

   In response to the latter part of your comment, you are approaching the subject with extreme naivete.  When you say first-hand evidence, what counts?  If I died, went to hell, and came back to life and told you about it, would you believe?  Would I need to bring charred clothing?

   I am sure there are many places in the universe that you haven’t been or seen, yet you do not doubt the existence of these places.

10. Renshia on August 25th, 2009 at 1:19 pm

    “When you say first-hand evidence, what counts?  If I died, went to hell, and came back to life and told you about it, would you believe?  Would I need to bring charred clothing?”
    YES.  , and  a confirming witness, to validate it as well.
    Pictures would be nice.  Maybe a souvenir spoon to put on my rack.
    “I am sure there are many places in the universe that you haven’t been or seen, yet you do not doubt the existence of these places.”
    Sure that may be true, but I will not state that there existence is a fact, or waste energy convincing others of there existence. Or use them as tools to try and bring others to believe what I believe.
    Nor will I use ludicrous concepts that defy rational thinking to support those beliefs in there defense.
    If  I receive more information that casts those beliefs into doubt, I will take the time to re-evaluate those concepts and will change the beliefs according to the new evidence presented.
    The difference is that I don’t think I am right. I Think I have made the best decision I could make based on the information I have at hand. My life is a journey of learning and growing. The only thing I seek it to become more than what I am right now.  I understand In the grand scheme of things I really no nothing, so I have to live in this flux of learning and growing.
    But in your world, these things mean nothing. Your world is limited by black and white. Your decisions are all ready made for you. Your learning is all done, you have your book that lays it all down. Sure you may think you are learning, but your limited within those confines, all you really have available to you is to regurgitate what is all ready there.
    Sorry I have lived that life it is no more than the world of a taxidermist.
    Maybe that world is good enough for you.  Maybe your happy with the comfort that is provided by those snug little walls.  I am not.  I have tasted how great life is outside those limited constructs. I have felt the joy that unbridled curiosity brings.
    If there is a god, and he is to condemn me for being what he created, then on principle alone I would live for eternity in hell, simply because it would be beneath me to associate with such a maniacal ass.
    So even if I am wrong, I am right.
     

11. Jon on August 25th, 2009 at 3:27 pm

    Renshia – It really sounds like you do think that you are right…otherwise, why would you be operating under the worldview that you are currently using if you don’t think you are right?  If you didn’t think you were right, you would be looking to become right.  But you have invested time in developing this worldview, so until someone really knocks your socks off with credible, ‘first-hand’ evidence, you will believe that you are right.

    Now, please clarify what is the ludicrous concept that defies rational thinking that I have been using?

    Also, based on what do you believe that my world is black and white? 

    My life is as you claim yours is – a journey of learning and growing.  I also understand that in the grand scheme of things I know little.  My human knowledge is finite in comparison to God’s infinite knowledge.  My decisions are not ‘made for me’. 

    You say that all I can do is ‘regurgiate what is alrady there’.  Maybe.  However, what original thought, what truly original thought have you brought to the discussion thus far?  As Benjamin Franklin said, ‘originality is the art of concealing your sources’.

    The world is certainly not good enough for me — that is why I look forward to heaven, and hope and pray that I can effect positive change in this world.

    I think your last statement is paradoxically accurate.  When you die, you will come face to face with God.  You will be presented with first-hand, credible evidence of his existence and his love.  And, you may, because of your stubborness, choose to live apart from him in Hell for eternity.

12. Renshia on August 25th, 2009 at 9:04 pm

    “It really sounds like you do think that you are right”

    No, As I said “I believe I have made the best decision with the current evidence at hand”. I will defend that evidence until I  find other credible evidence that in conjunction with current evidence points me to a new or altered belief.

    so until someone really knocks your socks off with credible, ‘first-hand’ evidence, you will believe that you are right.

    No, that is not true. I adjust beliefs continually. It is not always the big Eureka in life that make the biggest impacts in our life.
    for instance, I do not for see any huge eurekas coming from our conversations, however, I may by the end of this conversation believe it is possible to have a rational conversation with a christian.  I guess we will have to see. So even though I stand up for what I believe in I still as more information comes my way adjust my view.

    Now, please clarify what is the ludicrous concept that defies rational thinking that I have been using?

     
    The existence of god and the existence hell to begin with.
     

    Also, based on what do you believe that my world is black and white?

    The nature and teachings of religion and in particularly christianity.

    what truly original thought have you brought to the discussion thus far?

    None,  yet. Personally, I think we are still building a frame work into which I am trying to establish whether it is possible to have any kind of rational conversation with you.
    I have to go now. I will finish the last part of this when I get back.
     

13. Jon on August 25th, 2009 at 10:16 pm

    Renshia – I very much appreciate your “I believe I have made the best decision with the current evidence at hand” comment.  To me, that says you would postulate that your current convictions are correct, but you are continually seeking truth.

    I believe that we can have a rational conversation with one another.  We may come to a point, or several, where we disagree….but hopefully it won’t get too ugly.

    I don’t believe that the existence of God and the existence of Hell is ludicrous (there’s a point where we disagree), but I am interested in finding out more why you think that.

    I’ll admit that their are black and white elements of christianity — but there is a lot of gray as well….a lot of gray, in my opinion.

    I’ll agree that we are still building a frame work, and I hope we can continue to build it…both for our dialogue, but also for dialogue with Mark and Paul and others.

14. Renshia on August 25th, 2009 at 11:26 pm

    The world is certainly not good enough for me — that is why I look forward to heaven, and hope and pray that I can effect positive change in this world.

    My first question is why not?
    What makes you think heaven is going to be so great?
    This is why the world is in such shitty shape, all those people hoping and praying. If this world was something you cared about, instead of sitting around and praying  you’d  would get off your ass and do something.  Then maybe it would be good enough.
    But no instead of embracing all the glories that are available in this world you would rather sit around and preen of  days yet to come.
    See, in this you miss all value of  life. you think that life is some kind of game in which the  only value it possesses rewards that you will gain in heaven.
    But for me death is an essential part of my life it is a faithful companion that  reminds me that this is the only chance I get.  It help to set things into perspective.  It shows me how much of an unfathomable mystery life is.
    With out the awareness of death everything is trivial. The value of  life means nothing. As you have so clearly stated. What a waste.

    And, you may, because of your stubbornness, choose to live apart from him in Hell for eternity.

    No this has nothing to do with stubbornness. I am not a child having a temper tantrum. This has to do with morality and standards. I simply will not kneel to a blood thirsty savage. How can you in good conscious align yourself  with such a maniacal creature?  It must be only for the end game eh.
     

     

15. Nick on September 9th, 2009 at 9:37 am

    Jon,  if you think the tagline “Don’t be a slave to your end” is ironic then you just don’t get it.
    Religions all come about because humans are trying to explain their life and to cheat death by creating an afterlife (whether reincarnation, heaven, Valhalla etc.)  Religious belief is a fear of “the end“, i.e. following the dogma so that you reach the promised afterlife.
    Atheism is happy with this life, not concerned with thoughts, fears and rules about the next. Therefore unslaved from “the end”   Makes perfect sense to me, no irony needed.
    Amen

16. Jon on September 9th, 2009 at 10:24 am

    Actually Nick, religious belief is not a fear of “the end”.  I think this should be obvious, given that sacrificial death is a component of many theistic beliefs.

    Many theists are also happy with this life, and are not at all concerned with fears regarding the end.  They are not slaves, yet free because they don’t have an “end”. 

    In contrast, atheists only have this life – therefore, they are a slave to the end.  Anything they need to accomplish, they have to accomplish before hand.  Theists have eternity.

     Makes perfect sense to me, no irony needed.
    I think this shows the difference in our worldviews and why it is interesting to understand more about various belief systems.

17. Nick on September 9th, 2009 at 10:47 am

    Good points Jon.  However, I think you fail to see what I was trying to say (probably my fault).
    I said that religions come about as a way to explain why we are here and what happens next.  Once religions and religious dogma have been drawn up and accepted, then followers, in whatever form, have rules to follow in order to arrive at the right ‘end’ for their religion.  Sacrificial volunteers, death-pact cultists and suicide bombers have all followed their rules to meet their particular ‘end’.  In that sense they have no fear I accept, but also in that sense they are slaves to their belief. If they do not follow the rules of that belief, they will not reach their particular ‘end’ (i.e. the afterlife of their choosing).
    The theists you mention, are happy with their present lives, as long as they are following the religious belief system that leads them to their particular eternity. Most, if not all (I can’t claim to know about all various belief systems) religions establish rules on how followers should lead their lives. These rules, or a fear of not following these rules, is in effect a form, albeit a mild form, of slavery.
    This was, in my opinion, the message of the video that you found so ironic.

18. Jon on September 9th, 2009 at 12:28 pm

    Thanks for the clarification, Nick.  It seems we disagree about the nature of the origins of religion.  If for a moment, you can accept my premise that not all religions come about to explain why we are here and what happens next, then perhaps you can see why I found the message ironic.  If accept religion as true, rather than something made up to explain something, than it is not just a system of rules that people are slaves to, but instead a mechanism which frees people to engage in all that is good, forever.

    Now, if I ignore the premise that I ask you to accept, I still find the video ironic.  Let’s say religion is just a set of rules that people abide by to extend their existence.  Atheism then, is the establishment of a definitive endpoint, death.  This definitive end than captures life into a set of bounds – beginning to end.  The atheist is then a slave to these bounds – they are a slave to the end.  And there is the irony.

    Now, as this last set of comments between you and I has established, there is a set of restrictions that comes with being an atheist, and a set of freedoms.  Similiarly, there is a set of restrictions that comes with being a theist, and a set of freedoms.

    One of important aspects of advertising is to focus the target audience.  Its less about the message, and more about how the audience hears the message.  Who is this advertisement meant for?  It seems that it appeals to atheists, rather than theists.  However, the goal of most advertisements is sales conversion, which would leave theists as the target audience.  In that case, I think the video is unsuccessful, of course, with some allowance being made for the ‘amateur’ aspect of it.