The Secularization of Quebec

21 Responses to “The Secularization of Quebec”

1. Paul on September 4th, 2009 at 5:20 pm

   If only Ontario would follow suit and dismantle its discriminatory, publicly funded Catholic Separate School Boards.

2. 40 Year Old Atheist on September 4th, 2009 at 5:32 pm

   I hear you, Paul. We’ve got some real wonkiness here in Alberta too. There are some schools here that are still somehow permitted to stick creationism into science classes. It baffles the mind. I don’t think I’d be far off the mark saying we are the least secular province in Canada.

3. Jon on September 8th, 2009 at 8:23 am

   I hate to be a stickler on things like this, but when you say churches are being sold to the lowest bidder, don’t you really mean to say something like “churches are being sold to any bidder”?  Using ‘lowest bidder’ implies that their is a higher bidder and in fact they aren’t able to find multiple bidders for the churches.

4. 40 Year Old Atheist on September 8th, 2009 at 8:55 am

   alright, Jon – you are right. Apologies.

5. Julie on September 11th, 2009 at 10:18 pm

   Quebec isn’t far for me.

   I’m in southern Ontario. Except that I can’t really speak french. I kind of didn’t pay attention in high school.

6. QuestionMark on September 18th, 2009 at 11:17 pm

   From inside Quebec:
   The churches that are being sold are the properties only. No setting yourself up as Pope. Sorry. Former church properties have already been turned into condos.
   As for the new school program, my 6 year old will be taking those classes this year and I am very curious to see what and how they are taught.

7. Pastor Burnett on December 7th, 2009 at 1:29 am

   So, we’re to assume that nonbelief is atheism? If so how does one make that leap of faith? Or maybe secularization, in your opinion provides the same effect as atheism? What a mess!

8. 40 Year Old Atheist on December 7th, 2009 at 9:09 am

   @Pastor Burnett: Read the post again. It means what I said it means – that these are indicators that Quebec is an increasingly secular society with many people indicating they have no belief in god. What else would you take decreased church attendance and these polls to indicate – that it’s a sign that Quebec is becoming more religious? I’m curious how you’d twist these facts to fit your point of view.

9. Pastor Burnett on December 9th, 2009 at 3:28 pm

   My Firend I think that the “twisting” may be on your side of the argument…

   You affirm that these “have no belief in God” however YOU KNOW, that’s a vast difference from saying that they don’t believe that there is a God. In other words you do what many  do that want to support atheistic assertions…you TWIST the findings assuming that no belief equates to atheism. Now, you know what they asay about the word ASSUME? So that’s where I see the “twist” since you coin the term as such.

   A nonbelief IS NOT equivalent to an atheistic world view or belief. NONE of the studies reference this. In fact the opposite is true…most of these people take for granted that God exists, they just don’t serve him or have any grand claim to follow him religiously…That’s an accurate representation.

   For a person to not believe in God is not the same as believeing that God does not exist. Now what findings do you have to support and or confirm your reasoning regarding this sir?

10. QuestionMark on December 9th, 2009 at 6:46 pm

    Pastor,
    If you read the linked article carefully you will see the question asked to people in the survey was “Do you believe in God?” About 25% of people surveyed said no. Quite clear, no twisting of words.
    These people were not asked if they consider themselves atheists or not. But, the dictionary does define Atheism as the theory or belief that God does not exist.
    Saying non-belief or I do not believe or I am an atheist is irrelevant. Either way these are people who don’t belief in God. Not non-religious nor spiritual, not even agnostic, they don’t believe in God. Put any label on it you want, it doesn’t change their answers.

11. QuestionMark on December 9th, 2009 at 6:49 pm

    Oops,
    Sorry about the spelling and liberal use of commas. Belief should read believe in that last paragraph.

12. 40 Year Old Atheist on December 9th, 2009 at 7:10 pm

    @QuestionMark: Agreed. It’s pretty clear.

    @Pastor: I have to shake my head at the whole, “These people believe in god – they just won’t follow him” line of balogne. It’s very similar to the often made statement “You are just mad at God.” which is, for any atheist who’s put thought into their atheism, absolutely ridiculous.

13. Pastor Burnett on December 10th, 2009 at 11:26 am

    Thank for the response, but there is a big difference between one who doesn’t believe in God and one who affirms atheism. Before I was saved I didn’t believe in God, but i was no atheist. Some try to expand the atheist definition by including non believers saying that theyr were former atheists and that’s not the case.
    In Scandanavia vfor example the guy used the same trick only to find that the people of Scandanavia simply don’t hold traditional Christian views or beliefs, they’re not atheists and many deplore the label. However they also don’t proudly wear their Christianity either.
    So there is a distinction and that’s what I’m simply pointing out. 1- Not all unbelief means atheism.
    2- There si no way that the plight of the country can be separated from the religious past of the individuals. religion in all of these cases has shaped the landscape of morality. So even IF they say they are atheists (for example) the morality they display is based on their Christian past.

    Name one value that atheism by itself taught you?

    I don’t men to come to your site and be an antagonist and I won’t, but I am preparing a post on this particular subject because it is interesting. So far as the mad at God part, I make no such claim…so anyway… 

14. Pastor Burnett on December 10th, 2009 at 11:28 am

    Sorry, I really CAN spell believe it or not-LOL!

15. QuestionMark on December 10th, 2009 at 12:59 pm

    Pastor I think there is a disconnect when you are viewing atheists as a group. We generally don’t see ourselves as an organized group. There are Freethinkers, Brights, Atheists and others. We share some common ideas (mainly the no god thing). But we don’t have an organized structure like a religion. Although the internet has brought us much closer and allowed individuals like myself to find a like-minded community. 
    My point is just like in any church, synagogue or mosque each individual has a slightly different take on their religion, us non-believers are subject to our own take on godlessness including what we call ourselves (I personally think that is a big problem in the community). 
    We hear people say “Well, you never see atheist giving to charity.” We generally don’t act as a group for anything. There’s no Pope, no head office, no leaders. We act as individuals. Which is never seen. As I said though, this is starting to change for the better (obviously, my opinion).
    A lot of people don’t like the title atheist because of the negativity it promotes in others. But when someone says they don’t believe in God. It doesn’t matter what you call him/her.

16. Nick on December 11th, 2009 at 3:00 am

    PB- “there is a big difference between one who doesn’t believe in God and one who affirms atheism”
    Don’t want to get into semantics, but an atheist is, by definition, one who does not believe in a god. There is a difference maybe in passive and active atheism, just as there is with practising and non-practising Christians for example, but they are still atheists.
     
    I’m not sure if ‘non-practising atheist’ is an oxymoron but there is a difference between people who are interested in exploring and developing their non-belief, probably like many of the people who have sought and found sites like this one, and those who have no belief.
    As QM says, there is no organised ‘religion’ of atheism, it’s more of a state of mind I guess, but it would be strange to suggest that stating a belief that there is no god is not the same as atheism.
    I don’t know enough about it, but can someone believe that Jesus was the divine son of God without being called  a Christian?

17. Pastor Burnett on December 11th, 2009 at 12:42 pm

    Nick,

    You asked “I don’t know enough about it, but can someone believe that Jesus was the divine son of God without being called  a Christian?”

    Belief in Jesus wouldn’t necessarily cause them to be a Christian especially if it’s the wrong Jesus, but not believing in God doesn’t make one by default and atheist either.

    As stated, I wasn’t a believer at one time. However, I wasn’t an atheist either I simply had no God belief one way or another. Now, some Christians say that they were atheists because they also were unbelievers but I think that’s padding the numbers to make something look good…I mean under that ruberick we could say that every Christian is a former atheist, and I don’t believe that’s accurate.

    As I view atheism I find that atheism, no matter what brand or segment or level, is a worldview that includes the tenets, 1- God doesn’t exist all the way down to the more agnostic brand of 2- God exists but we can’t know him and he is apart from this world. (or some variation)

    The cultures the writer alludes to are secular, but to make the leap that they follow and atheistic world view and are better because of it is a leap of epic proportions.

    All unbelievers aren’t atheists or even atheistic in their worldview…I was one!

18. QuestionMark on December 11th, 2009 at 11:45 pm

    I think, Pastor, that we as atheists are just one part of the larger godless community. As has been stated, there’s more than one level of living without god. Not all of them call themselves atheists, but what makes us a community is our common disbelieve.
    I went for most of my life not believing in god but didn’t call myself an atheist. That’s because I never thought about my beliefs at all. When I finally decided to determine what my beliefs were, I realized, “hey I’m an atheist!” My beliefs hadn’t changed, just my awareness of them. So what was I before this realization? Was I an atheist or non-believer or something else?
    From my perspective, I doesn’t matter. I didn’t believe then and I don’t believe now. Call me what you like. Atheist, non-believer, unbeliever, disbeliever, if you know any others let me know, just be polite, I’m Canadian, we’re used to good manners.
    And just to nitpick, the article we’ve been discussing never mentions an atheism-secularism link and the first commentor to bring up the idea it was you.

19. Pastor Burnett on December 14th, 2009 at 11:01 am

    Question M,

    When an atheist references and says thigns like: “A recent survey shows that one in four Canadians do not believe in god, but Quebec is leading the way with huge declines in church attendance”

    That combination fo facts pretty much suggests the context of the comments.

    Thanks for the interraction, as I’m doing some research on this topic for an upcoming post also.

20. QuestionMark on December 14th, 2009 at 1:05 pm

    Pastor, 
    As I have said, we atheist are aware we are part of a larger godless community, the suggestion that we believe everyone in that study calls themselves an atheist was all yours. 
    The “combination of facts” was a reference to a Star article and our interest in it? Was there a particular comment on the article that brought you to your conclusion? 
    Even though we didn’t write the article nor do the study it does interest some of us. 

21. kris on October 18th, 2010 at 8:39 am

    Pastor,

    I think if the question was broken into different parts, like
    1. do u believe in Jesus?
    2. Do u believe in Allah
    and so on and so forth would have resulted in a more ‘accurate’ figure.

    It’s just playing with the word “God” which clearly does not have the same meaning/person/deity as others.

    Meaning ‘not believing in god’ in this context is actually rejecting the belief in all of the religious ‘heads’.

    So the conclusion is the same, regardless the color of the lense u look through

    Cheers