Three Crucial Things You Must Know Before Challenging An Atheist’s Unbelief

I propose that there are three categories of atheists:

  1. Natural Atheists: Those brought up by atheist parents who never experienced the conflict between religion and rationality.
  2. Apathetic Atheists: Those whose faith was not particularly strong and who, without a compelling drive to believe or not believe, defaulted to atheism - becoming an atheist involved very little internal debate and conflict.
  3. Dissonant Atheists: Those who grew up with belief but who were overwhelmingly torn up over the incompatibility between faith and rationality. These people sought one thing - to rid themselves of the terrible cognitive dissonance cat #1 and #2 atheists are spared from.

I’m here to talk about category #3 atheists because, well, I fall in that grouping.

Three Things You Must Know About Category #3 Atheists

  1. We Sometimes Wish Were Wrong (Even Though We Know We Are Not): I think one of the biggest mistakes theists make is to assume an atheist’s decision to ditch god was arrived at without deeply studying the issue. They honestly believe that all they have to do is raise a little awareness and, viola, they will have an easy conversion. This is not the case for cat #3 atheists. For us, becoming an atheist was the biggest decision of our lives. After all, becoming an atheist, not only means (for 99.9999% of us) getting rid of god, it also means abandoning the idea of immortality (ourselves and our loved ones) and that makes it a very, very big decision. Many of us go through a very real grieving process over all of this. With all this on the line, do you really think we’d only put a half-assed effort into our decision?
  2. We’ve Heard It All Before: I’m amazed how often - in my short, six months as an atheist - I’ve been challenged by someone who thinks they have the ultimate argument for religion. Trust me, you have nothing new to offer us on this discussion. Why am I so cocky (clue: see #1 above)? We’ve heard all your objections and questions before - probably many times before. Where have we heard them? We heard them inside our own heads during our de-conversion process. We’ve run the scenarios and questions many, many times - over and over - in our minds and, eventually, logic won out over these objections and we accepted reality. Most cat #3 atheists will have read multiple books on both sides of the argument, spend hundreds of hours on the web, and viewed countless Youtube debates (frankly, once you’ve seen Christopher Hitchens or Sam Harris demolish the likes of Dinesh D’Souza a few times, our own debates seem …rather lame). What you need to know is that by the time you come into the picture, your objections are not at all new to us.
  3. You are Projecting: What we’ve come to realize about your questions and objections (e.g. “What’s the purpose of life without God?” and “Why be moral?”) is that you’re projecting your thoughts, insecurities and fears onto us. Sure, we can answer your questions but, we know in doing so that our worldview troubles you, and that you ask those questions to help you imagine what it might be like to be an atheist. My advice is to keep on asking these good questions, but to also make sure you ask them of yourself. I think you’ll find that you can imagine there’s no heaven. You may even find that it’s easy if you try.

To be blunt, what all this means is that you have very little hope of converting a cat #3 atheist to your religion (you probably won’t have much luck with a cat #1 either). Seriously, your best chance probably lies in converting cat #2 atheists so you might want to start by asking a few questions before wasting time on the wrong category.

Now you have a better understanding of us. You also have a more specific target conversion market.

You’re welcome.


Tags: • •

October 28, 2008 · Filed Under Atheism, religion

Comments

65 Responses to “Three Crucial Things You Must Know Before Challenging An Atheist’s Unbelief”

  1. GentlePath on October 28th, 2008 7:38 am

    I don’t think people really get that — sometimes I really do miss having faith. But no matter how much I might want it, I can’t be reinserted into the matrix now that I’m awake and aware.

  2. sikanrong on October 28th, 2008 11:25 am

    HOORAY for cat #1!! w00t! :)

    We’ve got it easy!

  3. Anti-supernaturalist on October 28th, 2008 11:37 am

    Well, there must be a category A4 and A5 ’cause I’m at least two degrees more ill-disposed to any form of supernaturalism and magical thinking than any A3.

    1. I never wish I had any form of faith back. Occasionally, I’m overcome by a great sense of relief at never having to care about what claims are being made. They are all, each one of them, false.

    2. When StumbleUpon finds me a particularly aggressive/stupid web blog, I often take the opportunity to undercut xian nonsense.

    ~ the Anti-supernaturalist

  4. Other Atheist on October 28th, 2008 4:40 pm

    I’m really intrigued by your categorization of atheists, I think it should be expanded upon.  I was generally raised without religion, some funny new age stuff, but I never went to church.  I was sadder to realize that I couldn’t actually predict my future with tarot and astrology than that there was no heaven.  I guess that makes me a category 3- I was sad to realize that my beliefs were incompatible with reason and was forced to rationally abandon them.

  5. eric on October 28th, 2008 5:29 pm

    Category one here…ish.  I was raised with an atheist father and an agnostic mother, I didn’t even understand what religion was until around 5 or 6.  But in middle school I converted to Wicca because my friend had a book on it and it facinated me, and then within a year went back to atheism, then I tried to get into christianity (I was at a bible camp and our bible leader was pretty convincing) but it just did not work.  I have also explored bhudism, taoism, and general spirituality but I always end up back at the cold reality of… well… reality.  I really want to believe there’s something more, the idea of oblivion scares me, but there isn’t.  For better or for worse I’m an atheist.

  6. Troy on October 28th, 2008 8:12 pm

    I’m cat 1, no fun de-conversion stories to tell.
    My family’s atheist, and I never got enough social interaction to hear about religion and take it seriously, so I’ve just always been this way. Weird.

  7. misanthropope on October 28th, 2008 11:50 pm

    athiests are not divided into herds.  that is the other side.

  8. FrodoSaves on October 29th, 2008 7:23 am

    Good post.

    I’m constantly amazed by the counter-arguments I get from theists that are totally misaligned with the initial arguments I made. There is no God. But what about the beauty of a sunset, or of a choir in harmony? Not evidence of God. But Jesus’ message is so inspiring. Irrelevant, and not evidence of God. But what about the fact that the universe is infinitely large, doesn’t that boggle your mind? Of course it does, but it’s not evidence of God.

    They’re nothing new of course, I’m just amused by the failure to posit arguments that are actually relevant!

  9. John on October 29th, 2008 9:33 am

    I thought I was the only one who would much rather be blind to the facts then to be atheist. It would be so much easier. But I know it is the right choice I’m making. It does grant this extra freedom mentally, and I’m still a good person without god! I’m not killing and raping like they all say we do.

  10. chris on October 29th, 2008 6:10 pm

    I’m guess i’m cat. 2, but i added atheism to stumbleupon, and since then, i’ve read so much atheist stuff that I’m of the resolve of a Cat. 3. But i don’t want religon. I’m conferted by nothingness. Please don’t try to catagorize us. It won’t always work.

  11. CrabbyR on October 29th, 2008 6:28 pm

    I love your description of the process that leads to cat 3
    thats a perfect description of my deconversion…once you achieve that level you can never go back. You will try a bit if someone close dies , however it`s just too absurd and silly
    to be taken seriously.
    Beware the death insurance salesman

  12. Diane on November 2nd, 2008 6:37 am

    Just yesterday I had a strange experience related to belief and non-belief.  It’s a long story, which I will spare you, but the bottom line is I interacted with a nice couple who was considering purchasing a huge door from me.  They asked me why I was selling it, and I became emotional as I told them how my husband had an affair and moved in with the other woman.  This led to bankruptcy and foreclosure, so we are selling what we can from the house.  Anyway, after we were done with our business, the man asked me if we could pray together.  He must have seen the look on my face, because he asked, “or do you not believe in God?”  I explained my Category 1 status, and thanked him for his kind thoughts.  It ends up he was a pastor.  My point here is  I was neither apologetic of my status nor contemptuous of theirs.  I am truly at peace with my non-belief.

  13. Paul on November 2nd, 2008 3:45 pm

    This post is perfect. I’m a category three. I grew up with a catholic mother and a “cafeteria catholic” father. As soon as I was old enough to think for myself I started thinking about what I had been taught by my parents and priests. At the tender age of 9, my transformation began.

    I can’t even count the number of books I read on the religious side, trying..wanting to believe it, I’m horrified to die. I’ve gone so far as to read both the Bible and Qur’an in their entireties. I cannot see how any individual with an IQ high enough to keep their own drool in their mouth could believe that hogwash.

    Only a couple years ago did I realize that religion is not just irrational, it’s extremely dangerous. One only needs to flip on the news to see what it is doing to the world. And what these people are saying, it’s horrifying, you want to watch something scary flip on the religious channel “Day Star”.

    Mark these words: if nothing is done very soon and religion, not rationality or science prevails; It will be the cause of our extinction. Very likely in our own lifetime.

    I recently went to see Religulous (i highly recommend it by the way). I felt safer in that movie theater (with my fellow atheists) than I have anywhere else since I was a child.

  14. vision on November 3rd, 2008 3:50 pm

    Wow! Amazing article! I felt strong urge to scream “Yes! Exactly my thoughts!” at every sentence!  I felt like I was looking into the mirror. It’s unbelievable.  (Obviously I am cat#3)

  15. malendras on November 4th, 2008 1:09 am

    This is a great article. Really, expresses my sentiments perfectly, really well done! I’ve always wanted to write something like this.

    Cat 3 here by the way. Raised catholic. I don’t think these religious converters realize just how much thought and struggle goes into deconversion.

  16. greg marshall on November 4th, 2008 11:54 pm

    It’s taken me a concerted effort over the past five years to complete the atheist process.  It’s really difficult to remove all the religion pieces that become cemented in our lives are very difficult to remove.  It has been hard on my family.  As a #3 on the list, I could no longer allow myself the out of having the possibility of a god.  My world view would not allow it any more.  by the way…. I just turned 40 this year as well.

  17. Christy on November 6th, 2008 2:28 pm

    I fall into cat#3. I went to a christian school, but around eighth grade I felt guilty about trying to be  christian. It felt so wrong like I was constantly telling lies to myself. Now that I’m not a christian I feel so much more happier and I’m now 23 I don’t regret  a thing.

  18. Honestly on November 7th, 2008 12:39 pm

    For the category #1 and some from #2 Atheists, there is also the perspective of which religion is more correct.

    When they are asked to believe in a certain story of God, the other stories of the other God(s) must be eliminated. Since each story requires an equal amount of faith, none of them are more real then the other.

    Judaism is the supposed flawed version of Christianity, but then from there Islam is even more modern. But then why not Buddhism? What if the Aztecs had it right? Or the ancient Egyptians?

    All religions ask to not believe in other Gods. An Atheist only believes in a few less Gods then the believers.

  19. Modestas on November 7th, 2008 4:03 pm

    my thoughts exactly omfg!! im #3 and you have no idea how much grief i face from people in my school and my parents.

  20. al johnson on November 9th, 2008 6:46 pm

    If you really knew anything about Atheism you would know there are two categories, not three.

    1.Real Atheists have no need nor desire to prove or debate God, they simply don’t believe in a God or put their beliefs on display. They are so secure in their belief, that God does not enter their mind. Why would a nonentity dominate their thoughts?

    2.Pseudo Atheists on the other hand are at some level angry at the nonentity God, this is what really fuels them. They love the debate. They loudly declare there is no God and will go to great lengths to prove their points, to reinforce a belief they don’t really hold. They might even start a Blog on the subject. They constantly strive to align themselves with the “Real” Atheists. A real Atheist would never have a need to put their belief on display. A real Atheist rarely identifies as an Atheist, there’s simply no need. God enters their thoughts with about as much conviction as the Easter Bunny, or Santa Claus would enter Christians thoughts.

    My advice is for you to run back to the God or religion you’re running from and angry with. Make peace with your God. You will never make it as an Atheist.

  21. Dave Eaton on November 9th, 2008 11:42 pm

    If you really knew anything about Atheism you would know there are two categories, not three.

    I usually try to be polite on the internet, but this has to be about the stupidest thing I have read.

    There is something particularly galling about someone parading their ‘atheist cred’, telling those of us who had religion intertwined with everything and everyone we ever cared about that we need to ‘run back to God’.

    And declaring that there are canonically 2 categories- who made you atheist pope, Johnson? Drop dead, please.

    Some of us came to atheism after being somewhat nurtured by religion, and at least by religious people. The comforting stories told to me by my mother and father turned out to be mythology. That stings a lot, but I am more devoted to truth than my own comfort. So it hurt, a great deal, to realize that rationality and religion were not compatible, but that is what I finally, inescapably concluded. To have some “more atheist than thou” jackass claim that I can’t handle the truth is more than I can stand.

    I don’t need membership in your ‘real atheist’ club, Johnson. If you are so emotionally stunted that you cannot understand the hard work some of us did to get over religion, that’s your problem. If that makes you count me as pseudo atheist, given that I don’t believe in a god, then your categories are nonsensical. And they are.

  22. ln on November 13th, 2008 11:25 pm

    @al johnson:  I won’t make any claims or inquiries into your personal life, I really don’t care.  Your words, though, tell me that you’re just as arrogant and petulant as all of the other religious fundamentalists.  Dare I say that  most atheists, myself included, reject your so-called “Real Atheism” just as fervently as we reject religion.  In my eyes at least, they’re one in the same.

    @Mark:  I find it interesting that, out of all the websites and blogs I’ve read about atheism, yours is the only one that bothers to point out the fact that we are, indeed, rejecting immortality for ourselves and our loved ones.  I’ve experienced this myself, and I’ve found that it’s equally difficult to find the strength to be at peace with that idea, most especially when death hits close to home.  In contrast, when I was able to make peace with it, I found that it was comforting that: this life isn’t just some demented, impossible, divine test, and there isn’t some god that “allowed” or even “caused” this to happen to us for some reason.  There is no just or unjust, only pure, random chance.

  23. Joe on November 15th, 2008 10:12 am

    Wow… Thanks! As a Christian, this puts a helluva lot into perspective… After reading this, i’m gonna put a lot more thought into how i go about my business, and, as seeing as i appear to be part of your target audience, i must congragulate you for a job well done!

    Also, @misanthropope, What the hell? “Not put into herds”? Isn’t the simple fact that you’re choosing to be along with the large crowd of people who disbelieve in religion put you in a “herd”? The fact that you also go about persecuting theists for what they believe puts you in a group. No matter what your belief on the supernatural, you’re part of a herd one way or the other, just like us on “the other side” (since when was it a war, may i ask?) Oh, and please, do you ever see any theists shortening the name ‘athiest’? Please don’t use the word xtian, it’s plain racist.
    Right, that’s my rant at him done…

    I want to say again, thanks for writing this!

  24. brassart on November 16th, 2008 5:59 pm

    Interesting position.  But it does not take into account that the reasons that fail you, do not fail others.  Your view is different.  The reasons are not compelling…to you.  Which is far and away a different thing from the reality of there being a God or not.  It also comes with the assumption that you are truly able to be impartial in your views and your judgement of others reasons.

  25. Jayme on November 16th, 2008 9:38 pm

    I love this article.  I was actually just having conversation with someone last night about my status as a cat#3 atheist.  I grew up Catholic, went to church and did the sacraments and everything, but around 6th grade I started breaking away from religion and realizing that it doesn’t follow the logic of reality that I had come to believe existed.  I researched religions for years, hoping that I just wasn’t satisfied with Catholicism, but there was no use.  Today (a senior in college) I am a loud, proud La Veyan Satanist (basically an atheistic religion).  Though I do still mourn my loss of religion.  It would be so much easier to be blind to reality and believe in a god and an afterlife and all of that stuff, but I just can’t do it.  *sigh*  The eternal struggle of a realist.

  26. Middle Age on November 16th, 2008 10:36 pm

    I’m 44. Middle age. I can’t believe it. Time flies. Yesterday I was starting my career. Up to now, I’ve been wasting my time worrying.

    No one knows a lot of things for sure. We are alone, we are not alone. There is hope, there is not hope. We can be good to others, we can be bad to others. Our souls may exist when we die, our souls may not exist when we die. There is a God, there is not a God.

    I know one thing. I exist right now. I am thinking. I am typing. I have a wife. I have five wonderful children. There are some things that I need and some things that I want. I want to treat others as I would like to be treated.

    That is all. The rest is all philosophy, rationalism, empiricism, you name it, is futile, trying to explain the unexplainable. Thousands of years, and no progress whatsoever in this regard.

    DB

  27. Jon on November 16th, 2008 10:37 pm

    Thank you. Of all the wonderful, rational and reasoned websites Ive perused, this is by far the grandest. I was nearly a youth pastor after being groomed from birth. I’m 28, and only within the last year affirmed my non-belief, and completed the process. Ive never been so at peace with myself. From a former Southern Baptist in the buckle of the Bible Belt, thank you.

  28. izz on November 17th, 2008 11:18 am

    Awesome article. I grew up in a Christian household but never cared too much for it. By the age of 10 I became an atheist after my grandfather died. I thought there was no way there was a god if I have to go through this. Later on I learned about science and how wrong the Bible is and I am now a very strong atheist and I have never felt more secure in my entire life.

  29. marian on November 17th, 2008 3:58 pm

    I grew up in an orthodox family, and as a kid I believed too. Even now, at 29, I sometimes wish things were that easy, and only need one answer, but I know for sure there’s no such thing as an universal answer, or even universal truth. But I’m pretty sure there’s no such thing as gods of any type.

  30. max on November 17th, 2008 4:49 pm

    I’m a category 1 atheist. some of my friends were religious but they didn’t talk about it. i had no real understanding of who this god was in the pledge of allegiance (or why i said ‘oh my god’). then i went to high school. in south Florida. lawdy loo’ I had culture shock, discovering that people were almost fanatical about fairy tales that made no sense (and were kinda horrible in themselves). lots of anger and conflict result from both sides since i didnt hide the fact that i was an atheist. not knowing the fear/hate that the word begat.

    food for thought.

  31. Lars on November 17th, 2008 6:21 pm

    Im a group 1… Here in Denmark most people are cutural cristians so its kinda easy beeing an atheist here. By cultural cristian I mean that people go to church at babtism, weddings and burials and thats it. If you ask people if they believe in the bible70% says no. Anyway I am a surviver of a bomb attack in Egypt and I was pretty hurt. At the hospital in Cairo a long bearded preist came and said blessing and made his “oilcan” ready. I said: I dont really believe.. And he smiled and said who does?

    Thats a preist after my head…

  32. Adrian on November 17th, 2008 9:18 pm

    Great article! I’m a cat 1athiest, and while I definatly agree that it would be much harder to be a cat 3 athiest, i’m still not completly spared from the cognitive dissonance you mentioned. I still share similar thoughts of a cat 3 athiest, mainly including the “I wish we were wrong” part. I have a fair share of sleepless nights where my thoughts are “What exactly is existance?”, “Do I really exist?” and “Are my thoughts even real?”. If I were wrong about athiesim and believed in religion, then these thoughts wouldn’t bug me, but because of the way I am and because of the ammount of thinking I have done on the subject of god(s) and religion, I know that they cannot be real.

  33. Mike on November 18th, 2008 4:39 am

    As a Christian who believes in God and the Bible to be God’s word, I find this article hardly helpful in terms of converting an atheist person. If God is not real and Christianity is just all baloney, then this article would definitely apply not only to Christians vs. Atheist, but any kind of battle of ideologies if we just generalize the concepts here a bit.

    But if a Christian and an Atheist were to get together and consider the possibility that God might be real and the Bible true, then it changes the whole game. One thing I want to make clear is that true, genuine conversion is not through persuasive arguments, paradigm/worldview changes, or debunking your logic, but God’s intervention in convicting the nonbeliever of their sin, His mercy in allowing that person to come to God through belief in Jesus Christ, and God’s kindness in giving us all the different gifts we receive as Christians. Of course, God honors Christians with the privilege of conveying this message to nonbelievers, but ultimately, it is not merely winning an argument that people come to believe.
    1 Cor 2:4-5 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, so that your faith might not rest on men’s wisdom, but on God’s power.

    Concerning why Christians do debate and discuss philosophy/logic/other arguments with people, why in my opinion should be the proper motive of getting into heady conversations with people is to love and serve them. Here’s what I mean: Some people are genuinely stuck in their disbelief of God. Before they can even consider what Jesus had done for them on the cross, they demand that certain questions be answered. As an act of love and service, Christians try to remove those stumbling blocks. So to reference back to this article and conclude my ranting (of love and service to you all :) ), type 1 and 2 Atheists may welcome this clearing of stumbling blocks, whereas type 3 Atheists may choose to reject this act of service. This is fine, because if the Christian’s motive is proper, no thanks or repayment or obligation of the Atheists conversion was ever needed in the first place.

  34. Luci on November 18th, 2008 10:41 am

    I wholeheartedly agree. Actually I find it very offensive when believers assume we don’t know enough, and thus try to teach us about religion. It did not come easy, as we have to change everything we believed in and used as a crutch for some time, often a very long time. Then we have to “come out” to our family and friends, which often means committing social suicide.

  35. Oh The Stupidity on November 18th, 2008 10:21 pm

    Well done.  I’ve seen other attempts at categorizing the genesis (ha) of an atheist, but this was very well presented.

    As a CAT3 atheist, you may not realize the difference between your mindset and that of us lifelong CAT 1/2 atheists.  Namely, we tend to be bewildered that so many otherwise intelligent people believe such utter nonsense.

    If I met someone and they earnestly told me they believed in the true existence of the Greek gods, I would not think of them any differently than I do modern theists.  In either case, it is so astonishingly clear that it is man-made rubbish that to believe in it defies comprehension.

    Again, well-written post.

  36. Marcus Harman on November 20th, 2008 3:55 pm

    Thanks for a well reasoned and superbly communicated article.  As much as I abhor labels, I suppose that under your schema  I’m a cat 3 athiest.  My falling  out from under the spell of religion was a  particularly traumatic experience as I realised that everyone I ever cared about would cease to exist at some point, as would I.  Even more disturbing was the realisation that the whole human race is certifiably insane.  This was only marginally relieved by the counterpoint that every single rabid asshole I have encountered or will encounter will eventually disintegrate into oblivion too.  Eventually I managed to find some peace without God and believe it or not I’m happier as a practicing athiest.  To cut a long story short, my motto has become:

    God is imaginary.  Get over it.

  37. Cora on November 20th, 2008 11:59 pm

    Such a good article. 

    I left the Mormons after 25 years.   There’s no way to explain that arduous journey — and the resulting LIBERATION! –  to a Christian.  The Christians who’ve responded to this article have demonstrated this point by sharing their inability to engage in rational discourse.  (Yeah, I’ve heard every fallacy in the book used to prove God).

    I used to have a joyous belief in Santa too.  It occurred to me at about 7 that it wasn’t possible for Santa to be real.  I tried to put those thoughts out of my head and retain the lovely “belief” but, once it’s gone, it’s gone for good!  I think religious belief is the same.  Once a person realizes that “There is no God” answers far more questions, far more accurately, than “I believe, I believe, I believe…” ever can, there’s no turning back.  In fact, there’s no wanting to!

    Being an Ex-Mormon in a family of Mormons for 2 decades has been hell.  One day, they’ll learn that I’m actually much worse than they realize: I’m a CATEGORY 3 ATHEIST ! ! !

  38. Simple Meditation on November 22nd, 2008 12:52 am

    Excellent content and style…keep up the good work!

  39. Yvette on November 25th, 2008 9:10 pm

    How incredibly true this article is!

  40. Moiz Khan on November 25th, 2008 9:18 pm

    I really enjoyed this article, and through my experience of herding cats (started a freethought club at my university) this is very true, as I have encountered many atheists, and all of them fall into one of these categories.

    Personally I fall into the 3rd, though, I am in slight disagreement with the notion that we “wish we wrong.” I think my mortality gives meaning to my life that immortality wouldn’t. I would go as far as saying that immortality would be a curse.

  41. postsimian on November 26th, 2008 3:13 pm

    Very, very nicely written.  Don’t worry about what the detractors say.  They’re bullshit artists, plain and simple.  The jackass who thinks there are two categories of atheists, for instance, apparently doesn’t recognize the importance of the debate.  The reason can only be that he either doesn’t know or is incapable of comprehending the negative impact religion has on society, which completely justifies the necessity of the debate. 

    Good article, sir.  Keep it coming.

  42. Glenn on November 30th, 2008 12:11 am

    I’m a 50 year old atheist as of 2000 and I think you forgot
    one significant category, namely people who were brought
    up in a mainstream christian church, like methodist or
    lutheran (like me), knowing very little about fundamentalists but, thinking that belief in god must be a
    good thing, marries a fundamentalist.  Then after 14 years of marriage and immersion in doctrinally sound
    churches coming to the conclusion that it’s all a
    load of hooey.  I think this one hurts a lot more than your category #3.  all the best  GD

  43. Joy on December 11th, 2008 7:42 pm

    I’m a cat 1 and 3 combo.  Growing up cat 1 in the Bible Belt, I wanted so desperately to fit in that I tried to be Christian. First, I was confirmed in my parents’ original religion (Catholicism) at my university. Then, on a return to the Bible Belt, fell in with protestants, would “fall away” and keep trying to return. Kept getting reconverted until finally I was diagnosed with a deadly cancer.  When I realized that I didn’t care whether there was life after death or not, but was rather grateful for the life I’d had, and had a sense of needing to make the best of what was left…

    Well, I realized I’d been trying to fit in with humanity all these years, as is natural, and that a god was unnecessary. I was very lucky to have had a good enough life to feel this way. Now, instead of fitting in with humans, too, I seek to be good, and to make good use of my little time left. (I’m doing well, in fact, I just mean that any human has precious little time left.) 

    When I realized I didn’t fear oblivion as much as I feared the hatred of Christian people, it all just felt like nonsense to me.  I’ll die and be gone.  I’m glad to be alive now.

  44. Joy on December 11th, 2008 8:03 pm

    I know that my above response is a bit garbled. I’d meant to edit better, but I very unsuccessfully tried to multitask: helping my 6 year old with her homework, wash dishes, and keep coming back to the post! Anyway, shorter me: after years of trying to read everything and think my way into believing in God because everyone else seemed to, I just realized i didn’t need to, I’m a grownup, and I do the loving around here until my services are no longer needed. <g>

  45. Ed on December 11th, 2008 8:10 pm

    Joy,

    I am a Christian and I don’t hate you.

    I have a question and you don’t have to answer it if you don’t want to.  I don’t want you to feel uncomfortable or bring up any bad memories.

    But when you were trying to be a Christian, did you ever feel a connection with God?  Did He ever touch you, perhaps during a time of worship?
    Ed

  46. Ed on December 11th, 2008 9:02 pm

    How could a loving God threaten to send the crown jewel of His creation, Man, to burn in a Lake of Fire for eternity?

    Who would want to serve a God like that?

    I would like to post my thoughts on the subject this Monday.  Please feel free to offer your constructive criticism.  Perhaps you will convert me:)

  47. Mark on December 11th, 2008 10:52 pm

    Ed,

    I’m not sure who you are asking this of. I’m far beyond debating what’s contained in the Bible. My view of the Bible is that it’s a collection of stories written by ancient tribal cultures. There is virtually no historical validity to the Bible. It was written and re-written by too many authors over too many centuries to be taken seriously.

    So, with that, you can imagine that I lend no credence to concepts of heaven or hell. They are concepts dreamed up by a superstitious culture trying to make sense of their difficult existence.

    I’m not sure where you are writing this piece either. In my comments?

    Anyway, take care of yourself, Ed.
    ~Mark

  48. Grabovsky on December 14th, 2008 12:14 am

    I am cat#3.
    I am currently in the process of de-conversion. I have spent the last 4 months trying to rid myself of the delusion of christianity, and am finding it very difficult. This has helped me realize why it has been so hard. Thanks.

  49. Ed on December 15th, 2008 10:49 pm

    Mark,

    The concept of eternal judgment was one that I had a tough time with and took me 2-3 years of research, study, prayer and the death of a friend to come to terms with.  I was going to summarize my findings for you but as you say, you’ve formed your own opinions and have set your course.

    At the risk of saying something you’ve already heard, allow me to just make a couple of comments and then I’ll try to leave you and your readers alone.

    First, the Gospel can be proven.  Jesus said in Jn 7.16-17:  “My teaching is not mine but his who sent me.  Anyone who resolves to do the will of God will know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own.”

    Now I realize you don’t believe this and that you doubt the veracity of Scripture.  I’ll just say that if God can create the universe which is 13-14 billion years old and over 100 billion light years in diameter, I’m simple enough to believe He can get me a copy of His book.  (http://www.reasons.org)

    Second and most importantly, what separates Christianity from every other religion is that it is not merely a system of tenets or beliefs but an intimate relationship with the Living God.  Jesus instructed His disciples that greatness in His Kingdom was found through the humility of a child.

    What I’m saying Mark is that if at some point you (or any of your readers) decide that perhaps there is more to life’s end than ceasing to exist; and you’d like to satisfy that annoying intermittent cry of your heart for a relationship with a Heavenly Father (which I applaud your transparency for sharing), here’s the promise:

    None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them.  He 8.11

    Ok, everyone can get their bottles and rocks and start chucking them now:)

    Take care Mark.

  50. Ed on December 15th, 2008 10:58 pm

    (I must have screwed up the link somehow.  The http://www.reasons.org site is active in case anyone’s interested.)

  51. Mark on December 18th, 2008 7:35 pm

    Ed,

    First, the Gospel can be proven.  Jesus said in Jn 7.16-17:  “My teaching is not mine but his who sent me.  Anyone who resolves to do the will of God will know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own.”

    I have said that the Bible is unproven and you respond by telling me to read and believe in the Bible and it will be proven to me? That’s not evidence, Ed - that’s faith. I do not base my life on faith of things that have no evidence

    …you’d like to satisfy that annoying intermittent cry of your heart for a relationship with a Heavenly Father (which I applaud your transparency for sharing)…

    Where did I say that? All I said was that we sometimes wish we were wrong about our mortality. I have no desire for the relationship you speak of. I am a grown man who is very happy with the relationships I have with real-live human beings.

    We’re a universe apart, Ed.

  52. postsimian on December 19th, 2008 2:51 pm

    Ed — you do realize that many of us were Christians before, right?  You’re not exactly sharing anything new.

  53. Ed on December 19th, 2008 8:19 pm

    Hey Mark,

    It’s paradoxical, but I guess what I’m trying to say is that the bible is testable.  And if / when it passes your test, the resultant confidence or faith becomes your evidence.

    Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.  He 11.1

    Let me clarify my other comment.  I was referring to when you said, “I found myself reacquainted with that frightened little voice in my head that yearned for a sort of parental comfort and protection from the perceived demons of the world.”  I had the exact same feeling when my son was diagnosed with Graves.  The natural instinctive response is to utilize every conceivable resource for the treatment of your son.

    I believe that is a universal response when any of us encounters life’s difficulties.  He’s proven Himself to me, when I was 8 years old and my Dad left us and today, 40 years later, running a business, challenged by the local economy in Detroit.

    Yes we’re a universe apart.  But that might not be as far as you think.  “He measured Heaven with the width of His Hand” Is 40.12  In other words, God managing the universe is like you or I packing a snowball.

    Here’s a link to Canadian astrophysicist Dr Hugh Ross explaining the scientific approach he used to evaluate the credibility of the various world religions and his discovery of the scientific method outlined in Genesis 1(from about the 2:00 minute mark of the video clip to about 9:00.)
    http://www.leestrobel.com/videoserver/video.php?clip=CCNT1727

    Peace,
    Ed

  54. Ed on December 19th, 2008 8:24 pm

    Postsimian,
    If you don’t mind me asking, what was it about your Christian experience that turned you off?

  55. Mark on December 19th, 2008 8:46 pm

    Ed,

    I’m very familiar with Lee Strobel. He is extremely under-whelming. I’d write more but this link will do a much better job explaining what I think of him.

  56. Ed on December 19th, 2008 11:34 pm

    Mark,

    I had never heard of Strobel until I Googled seeking a link to the Ross video.  It sounds like he promotes more hype than substance.  I happen to like Ross’s use of probability calculations determing the likelihood of dozens of specific life-sustaining characteristics of the universe randomly ocurring.

    I thought Kush K brought up some valid questions.  I’m going to think about them for a couple of days and try to offer a credible response.

    Have to take care of the day to day stuff as well.

    Thanks.

  57. Mark on December 19th, 2008 11:35 pm

    Wow. This is video is worse than Strobel’s stuff.

  58. postsimian on December 19th, 2008 11:51 pm

    Ed:  It’s important to note that what turned me off to Christianity actually had nothing to do with Christians.  I traded in my faith for evidence and abandoned the mystical for reason.  Evidence to the contrary is what ultimately turned me off. 

    If you’re talking about my experience as a Christian, well, I tried really hard to believe, tried really hard to do “be more Christ-like” and tried super-duper hard to bond with other Christians.  What I discovered was that no matter how much I wanted to believe, to many things were inconsistent and, let’s be honest, you can’t force yourself to believe something you don’t believe in.  I tried being more Christ-like only to be out-Jesused by holier-than-thou Christians.  Apparently raising your hands while singing and babbling nonsense talk makes one holier.  It was really a non-stop pissing contest.  Finally, no matter how hard I tried to identify with other Christians, despite my doubts, the hypocrisy of acknowledging a belief in Jesus coupled with a blatant disregard for his teachings gave me an associative distaste for other believers.

  59. Ed on December 20th, 2008 6:00 am

    Mark,

    Yes that one seems to be a folksy, watered-down-for-lay people “personal testimony”.  I’ll see if I can find a short clip of a more technical discussion.

  60. Ed on December 20th, 2008 6:42 am

    Postsimian,
    I hear ya, well put.  And I truly admire your efforts.

    You raise legitimate issues.  Rather than make a couple of “off the cuff” comments, I need a couple of days to consider the dynamics of your experience.  Your points are valid and obviously not uncommon.
    I’ll try to offer a meaningful response.  Obviously, if the answers were easy, this web site probably wouldn’t exist.

    I’ve got a son coming home from his university today so it will probably be early next week.

    Ed

  61. Ed on December 20th, 2008 7:00 am

    (I just noticed I hit you with a “double-obviously”.  As a hockey fan, I’ve often chuckled during player interviews at the ability of some players to work 4 or 5 into a 4 or 5 sentence response.)

  62. Ed on December 20th, 2008 7:14 am

    Mark,

    By the way, nice web site.  While we disagree on just about everything, I’ve got to say it’s really well organized.

  63. Joy on December 20th, 2008 7:11 pm

    Hi Ed,
    I get busy and haven’t been back, but I see your question. Truly, if I felt I’d connected with GOD, I’d still be a believer. What I felt connected with were the sweet people who wanted human connection, and to have a sense of there being a reason for things. It was they who touched me, or ticked me off, just like people do in every day life.  God was this strange being I had to talk about and believe in in order to be with my fellows.  I like the people. We’re far from perfect, but I like my journey, stresses, letdowns and all.  It all just makes more sense not trying to imagine that there’s this odd invisible being with mean crazy rules delivered in quaint ways (burning bushes??? ) that everyone argues about. 

    But I understand people who’ve had a horrible life, and don’t stand to see improvement must get substantial comfort from the idea that happiness will come some day.  I honor their craving for a hope of comfort and happiness, and I wish I had more power and ability to share my luck in this life. I have tried and will not stop trying. Well, time to clean, do my budget, so I can see what is left to share with my selected charities. And to write some letters to loved ones I know. :-)

  64. Chalmer on December 21st, 2008 5:32 pm

    The one that irritates me the most is Pascal’s wager.

  65. Joy on December 28th, 2008 7:37 pm

    Chalmer, it bugs the heck out of me, too.  

Leave a Reply