Three Crucial Things You Must Know Before Challenging An Atheist’s Unbelief

I propose that there are three categories of atheists:

  1. Natural Atheists: Those brought up by atheist parents who never experienced the conflict between religion and rationality.
  2. Apathetic Atheists: Those whose faith was not particularly strong and who, without a compelling drive to believe or not believe, defaulted to atheism – becoming an atheist involved very little internal debate and conflict.
  3. Dissonant Atheists: Those who grew up with belief but who were overwhelmingly torn up over the incompatibility between faith and rationality. These people sought one thing – to rid themselves of the terrible cognitive dissonance cat #1 and #2 atheists are spared from.

I’m here to talk about category #3 atheists because, well, I fall in that grouping.

Three Things You Must Know About Category #3 Atheists

  1. We Sometimes Wish Were Wrong (Even Though We Know We Are Not): I think one of the biggest mistakes theists make is to assume an atheist’s decision to ditch god was arrived at without deeply studying the issue. They honestly believe that all they have to do is raise a little awareness and, viola, they will have an easy conversion. This is not the case for cat #3 atheists. For us, becoming an atheist was the biggest decision of our lives. After all, becoming an atheist, not only means (for 99.9999% of us) getting rid of god, it also means abandoning the idea of immortality (ourselves and our loved ones) and that makes it a very, very big decision. Many of us go through a very real grieving process over all of this. With all this on the line, do you really think we’d only put a half-assed effort into our decision?
  2. We’ve Heard It All Before: I’m amazed how often – in my short, six months as an atheist – I’ve been challenged by someone who thinks they have the ultimate argument for religion. Trust me, you have nothing new to offer us on this discussion. Why am I so cocky (clue: see #1 above)? We’ve heard all your objections and questions before – probably many times before. Where have we heard them? We heard them inside our own heads during our de-conversion process. We’ve run the scenarios and questions many, many times – over and over – in our minds and, eventually, logic won out over these objections and we accepted reality. Most cat #3 atheists will have read multiple books on both sides of the argument, spend hundreds of hours on the web, and viewed countless Youtube debates (frankly, once you’ve seen Christopher Hitchens or Sam Harris demolish the likes of Dinesh D’Souza a few times, our own debates seem …rather lame). What you need to know is that by the time you come into the picture, your objections are not at all new to us.
  3. You are Projecting: What we’ve come to realize about your questions and objections (e.g. “What’s the purpose of life without God?” and “Why be moral?”) is that you’re projecting your thoughts, insecurities and fears onto us. Sure, we can answer your questions but, we know in doing so that our worldview troubles you, and that you ask those questions to help you imagine what it might be like to be an atheist. My advice is to keep on asking these good questions, but to also make sure you ask them of yourself. I think you’ll find that you can imagine there’s no heaven. You may even find that it’s easy if you try.

To be blunt, what all this means is that you have very little hope of converting a cat #3 atheist to your religion (you probably won’t have much luck with a cat #1 either). Seriously, your best chance probably lies in converting cat #2 atheists so you might want to start by asking a few questions before wasting time on the wrong category.

Now you have a better understanding of us. You also have a more specific target conversion market.

You’re welcome.

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October 28, 2008 · Filed Under Atheism, Religion

Comments

92 Responses to “Three Crucial Things You Must Know Before Challenging An Atheist’s Unbelief”

  1. GentlePath on October 28th, 2008 at 7:38 am

    I don’t think people really get that — sometimes I really do miss having faith. But no matter how much I might want it, I can’t be reinserted into the matrix now that I’m awake and aware.

  2. sikanrong on October 28th, 2008 at 11:25 am

    HOORAY for cat #1!! w00t! :)

    We’ve got it easy!

  3. Anti-supernaturalist on October 28th, 2008 at 11:37 am

    Well, there must be a category A4 and A5 ’cause I’m at least two degrees more ill-disposed to any form of supernaturalism and magical thinking than any A3.

    1. I never wish I had any form of faith back. Occasionally, I’m overcome by a great sense of relief at never having to care about what claims are being made. They are all, each one of them, false.

    2. When StumbleUpon finds me a particularly aggressive/stupid web blog, I often take the opportunity to undercut xian nonsense.

    ~ the Anti-supernaturalist

  4. Other Atheist on October 28th, 2008 at 4:40 pm

    I’m really intrigued by your categorization of atheists, I think it should be expanded upon.  I was generally raised without religion, some funny new age stuff, but I never went to church.  I was sadder to realize that I couldn’t actually predict my future with tarot and astrology than that there was no heaven.  I guess that makes me a category 3- I was sad to realize that my beliefs were incompatible with reason and was forced to rationally abandon them.

  5. eric on October 28th, 2008 at 5:29 pm

    Category one here…ish.  I was raised with an atheist father and an agnostic mother, I didn’t even understand what religion was until around 5 or 6.  But in middle school I converted to Wicca because my friend had a book on it and it facinated me, and then within a year went back to atheism, then I tried to get into christianity (I was at a bible camp and our bible leader was pretty convincing) but it just did not work.  I have also explored bhudism, taoism, and general spirituality but I always end up back at the cold reality of… well… reality.  I really want to believe there’s something more, the idea of oblivion scares me, but there isn’t.  For better or for worse I’m an atheist.

  6. Troy on October 28th, 2008 at 8:12 pm

    I’m cat 1, no fun de-conversion stories to tell.
    My family’s atheist, and I never got enough social interaction to hear about religion and take it seriously, so I’ve just always been this way. Weird.

  7. misanthropope on October 28th, 2008 at 11:50 pm

    athiests are not divided into herds.  that is the other side.

  8. FrodoSaves on October 29th, 2008 at 7:23 am

    Good post.

    I’m constantly amazed by the counter-arguments I get from theists that are totally misaligned with the initial arguments I made. There is no God. But what about the beauty of a sunset, or of a choir in harmony? Not evidence of God. But Jesus’ message is so inspiring. Irrelevant, and not evidence of God. But what about the fact that the universe is infinitely large, doesn’t that boggle your mind? Of course it does, but it’s not evidence of God.

    They’re nothing new of course, I’m just amused by the failure to posit arguments that are actually relevant!

  9. John on October 29th, 2008 at 9:33 am

    I thought I was the only one who would much rather be blind to the facts then to be atheist. It would be so much easier. But I know it is the right choice I’m making. It does grant this extra freedom mentally, and I’m still a good person without god! I’m not killing and raping like they all say we do.

  10. chris on October 29th, 2008 at 6:10 pm

    I’m guess i’m cat. 2, but i added atheism to stumbleupon, and since then, i’ve read so much atheist stuff that I’m of the resolve of a Cat. 3. But i don’t want religon. I’m conferted by nothingness. Please don’t try to catagorize us. It won’t always work.

  11. CrabbyR on October 29th, 2008 at 6:28 pm

    I love your description of the process that leads to cat 3
    thats a perfect description of my deconversion…once you achieve that level you can never go back. You will try a bit if someone close dies , however it`s just too absurd and silly
    to be taken seriously.
    Beware the death insurance salesman

  12. Diane on November 2nd, 2008 at 6:37 am

    Just yesterday I had a strange experience related to belief and non-belief.  It’s a long story, which I will spare you, but the bottom line is I interacted with a nice couple who was considering purchasing a huge door from me.  They asked me why I was selling it, and I became emotional as I told them how my husband had an affair and moved in with the other woman.  This led to bankruptcy and foreclosure, so we are selling what we can from the house.  Anyway, after we were done with our business, the man asked me if we could pray together.  He must have seen the look on my face, because he asked, “or do you not believe in God?”  I explained my Category 1 status, and thanked him for his kind thoughts.  It ends up he was a pastor.  My point here is  I was neither apologetic of my status nor contemptuous of theirs.  I am truly at peace with my non-belief.

  13. Paul on November 2nd, 2008 at 3:45 pm

    This post is perfect. I’m a category three. I grew up with a catholic mother and a “cafeteria catholic” father. As soon as I was old enough to think for myself I started thinking about what I had been taught by my parents and priests. At the tender age of 9, my transformation began.

    I can’t even count the number of books I read on the religious side, trying..wanting to believe it, I’m horrified to die. I’ve gone so far as to read both the Bible and Qur’an in their entireties. I cannot see how any individual with an IQ high enough to keep their own drool in their mouth could believe that hogwash.

    Only a couple years ago did I realize that religion is not just irrational, it’s extremely dangerous. One only needs to flip on the news to see what it is doing to the world. And what these people are saying, it’s horrifying, you want to watch something scary flip on the religious channel “Day Star”.

    Mark these words: if nothing is done very soon and religion, not rationality or science prevails; It will be the cause of our extinction. Very likely in our own lifetime.

    I recently went to see Religulous (i highly recommend it by the way). I felt safer in that movie theater (with my fellow atheists) than I have anywhere else since I was a child.

  14. vision on November 3rd, 2008 at 3:50 pm

    Wow! Amazing article! I felt strong urge to scream “Yes! Exactly my thoughts!” at every sentence!  I felt like I was looking into the mirror. It’s unbelievable.  (Obviously I am cat#3)

  15. malendras on November 4th, 2008 at 1:09 am

    This is a great article. Really, expresses my sentiments perfectly, really well done! I’ve always wanted to write something like this.

    Cat 3 here by the way. Raised catholic. I don’t think these religious converters realize just how much thought and struggle goes into deconversion.

  16. greg marshall on November 4th, 2008 at 11:54 pm

    It’s taken me a concerted effort over the past five years to complete the atheist process.  It’s really difficult to remove all the religion pieces that become cemented in our lives are very difficult to remove.  It has been hard on my family.  As a #3 on the list, I could no longer allow myself the out of having the possibility of a god.  My world view would not allow it any more.  by the way…. I just turned 40 this year as well.

  17. Christy on November 6th, 2008 at 2:28 pm

    I fall into cat#3. I went to a christian school, but around eighth grade I felt guilty about trying to be  christian. It felt so wrong like I was constantly telling lies to myself. Now that I’m not a christian I feel so much more happier and I’m now 23 I don’t regret  a thing.

  18. Honestly on November 7th, 2008 at 12:39 pm

    For the category #1 and some from #2 Atheists, there is also the perspective of which religion is more correct.

    When they are asked to believe in a certain story of God, the other stories of the other God(s) must be eliminated. Since each story requires an equal amount of faith, none of them are more real then the other.

    Judaism is the supposed flawed version of Christianity, but then from there Islam is even more modern. But then why not Buddhism? What if the Aztecs had it right? Or the ancient Egyptians?

    All religions ask to not believe in other Gods. An Atheist only believes in a few less Gods then the believers.

  19. Modestas on November 7th, 2008 at 4:03 pm

    my thoughts exactly omfg!! im #3 and you have no idea how much grief i face from people in my school and my parents.

  20. al johnson on November 9th, 2008 at 6:46 pm

    If you really knew anything about Atheism you would know there are two categories, not three.

    1.Real Atheists have no need nor desire to prove or debate God, they simply don’t believe in a God or put their beliefs on display. They are so secure in their belief, that God does not enter their mind. Why would a nonentity dominate their thoughts?

    2.Pseudo Atheists on the other hand are at some level angry at the nonentity God, this is what really fuels them. They love the debate. They loudly declare there is no God and will go to great lengths to prove their points, to reinforce a belief they don’t really hold. They might even start a Blog on the subject. They constantly strive to align themselves with the “Real” Atheists. A real Atheist would never have a need to put their belief on display. A real Atheist rarely identifies as an Atheist, there’s simply no need. God enters their thoughts with about as much conviction as the Easter Bunny, or Santa Claus would enter Christians thoughts.

    My advice is for you to run back to the God or religion you’re running from and angry with. Make peace with your God. You will never make it as an Atheist.

  21. Dave Eaton on November 9th, 2008 at 11:42 pm

    If you really knew anything about Atheism you would know there are two categories, not three.

    I usually try to be polite on the internet, but this has to be about the stupidest thing I have read.

    There is something particularly galling about someone parading their ‘atheist cred’, telling those of us who had religion intertwined with everything and everyone we ever cared about that we need to ‘run back to God’.

    And declaring that there are canonically 2 categories- who made you atheist pope, Johnson? Drop dead, please.

    Some of us came to atheism after being somewhat nurtured by religion, and at least by religious people. The comforting stories told to me by my mother and father turned out to be mythology. That stings a lot, but I am more devoted to truth than my own comfort. So it hurt, a great deal, to realize that rationality and religion were not compatible, but that is what I finally, inescapably concluded. To have some “more atheist than thou” jackass claim that I can’t handle the truth is more than I can stand.

    I don’t need membership in your ‘real atheist’ club, Johnson. If you are so emotionally stunted that you cannot understand the hard work some of us did to get over religion, that’s your problem. If that makes you count me as pseudo atheist, given that I don’t believe in a god, then your categories are nonsensical. And they are.

  22. ln on November 13th, 2008 at 11:25 pm

    @al johnson:  I won’t make any claims or inquiries into your personal life, I really don’t care.  Your words, though, tell me that you’re just as arrogant and petulant as all of the other religious fundamentalists.  Dare I say that  most atheists, myself included, reject your so-called “Real Atheism” just as fervently as we reject religion.  In my eyes at least, they’re one in the same.

    @Mark:  I find it interesting that, out of all the websites and blogs I’ve read about atheism, yours is the only one that bothers to point out the fact that we are, indeed, rejecting immortality for ourselves and our loved ones.  I’ve experienced this myself, and I’ve found that it’s equally difficult to find the strength to be at peace with that idea, most especially when death hits close to home.  In contrast, when I was able to make peace with it, I found that it was comforting that: this life isn’t just some demented, impossible, divine test, and there isn’t some god that “allowed” or even “caused” this to happen to us for some reason.  There is no just or unjust, only pure, random chance.

  23. Joe on November 15th, 2008 at 10:12 am

    Wow… Thanks! As a Christian, this puts a helluva lot into perspective… After reading this, i’m gonna put a lot more thought into how i go about my business, and, as seeing as i appear to be part of your target audience, i must congragulate you for a job well done!

    Also, @misanthropope, What the hell? “Not put into herds”? Isn’t the simple fact that you’re choosing to be along with the large crowd of people who disbelieve in religion put you in a “herd”? The fact that you also go about persecuting theists for what they believe puts you in a group. No matter what your belief on the supernatural, you’re part of a herd one way or the other, just like us on “the other side” (since when was it a war, may i ask?) Oh, and please, do you ever see any theists shortening the name ‘athiest’? Please don’t use the word xtian, it’s plain racist.
    Right, that’s my rant at him done…

    I want to say again, thanks for writing this!

  24. brassart on November 16th, 2008 at 5:59 pm

    Interesting position.  But it does not take into account that the reasons that fail you, do not fail others.  Your view is different.  The reasons are not compelling…to you.  Which is far and away a different thing from the reality of there being a God or not.  It also comes with the assumption that you are truly able to be impartial in your views and your judgement of others reasons.

  25. Jayme on November 16th, 2008 at 9:38 pm

    I love this article.  I was actually just having conversation with someone last night about my status as a cat#3 atheist.  I grew up Catholic, went to church and did the sacraments and everything, but around 6th grade I started breaking away from religion and realizing that it doesn’t follow the logic of reality that I had come to believe existed.  I researched religions for years, hoping that I just wasn’t satisfied with Catholicism, but there was no use.  Today (a senior in college) I am a loud, proud La Veyan Satanist (basically an atheistic religion).  Though I do still mourn my loss of religion.  It would be so much easier to be blind to reality and believe in a god and an afterlife and all of that stuff, but I just can’t do it.  *sigh*  The eternal struggle of a realist.

  26. Middle Age on November 16th, 2008 at 10:36 pm

    I’m 44. Middle age. I can’t believe it. Time flies. Yesterday I was starting my career. Up to now, I’ve been wasting my time worrying.

    No one knows a lot of things for sure. We are alone, we are not alone. There is hope, there is not hope. We can be good to others, we can be bad to others. Our souls may exist when we die, our souls may not exist when we die. There is a God, there is not a God.

    I know one thing. I exist right now. I am thinking. I am typing. I have a wife. I have five wonderful children. There are some things that I need and some things that I want. I want to treat others as I would like to be treated.

    That is all. The rest is all philosophy, rationalism, empiricism, you name it, is futile, trying to explain the unexplainable. Thousands of years, and no progress whatsoever in this regard.

    DB

  27. Jon on November 16th, 2008 at 10:37 pm

    Thank you. Of all the wonderful, rational and reasoned websites Ive perused, this is by far the grandest. I was nearly a youth pastor after being groomed from birth. I’m 28, and only within the last year affirmed my non-belief, and completed the process. Ive never been so at peace with myself. From a former Southern Baptist in the buckle of the Bible Belt, thank you.

  28. izz on November 17th, 2008 at 11:18 am

    Awesome article. I grew up in a Christian household but never cared too much for it. By the age of 10 I became an atheist after my grandfather died. I thought there was no way there was a god if I have to go through this. Later on I learned about science and how wrong the Bible is and I am now a very strong atheist and I have never felt more secure in my entire life.

  29. marian on November 17th, 2008 at 3:58 pm

    I grew up in an orthodox family, and as a kid I believed too. Even now, at 29, I sometimes wish things were that easy, and only need one answer, but I know for sure there’s no such thing as an universal answer, or even universal truth. But I’m pretty sure there’s no such thing as gods of any type.

  30. max on November 17th, 2008 at 4:49 pm

    I’m a category 1 atheist. some of my friends were religious but they didn’t talk about it. i had no real understanding of who this god was in the pledge of allegiance (or why i said ‘oh my god’). then i went to high school. in south Florida. lawdy loo’ I had culture shock, discovering that people were almost fanatical about fairy tales that made no sense (and were kinda horrible in themselves). lots of anger and conflict result from both sides since i didnt hide the fact that i was an atheist. not knowing the fear/hate that the word begat.

    food for thought.

  31. Lars on November 17th, 2008 at 6:21 pm

    Im a group 1… Here in Denmark most people are cutural cristians so its kinda easy beeing an atheist here. By cultural cristian I mean that people go to church at babtism, weddings and burials and thats it. If you ask people if they believe in the bible70% says no. Anyway I am a surviver of a bomb attack in Egypt and I was pretty hurt. At the hospital in Cairo a long bearded preist came and said blessing and made his “oilcan” ready. I said: I dont really believe.. And he smiled and said who does?

    Thats a preist after my head…

  32. Adrian on November 17th, 2008 at 9:18 pm

    Great article! I’m a cat 1athiest, and while I definatly agree that it would be much harder to be a cat 3 athiest, i’m still not completly spared from the cognitive dissonance you mentioned. I still share similar thoughts of a cat 3 athiest, mainly including the “I wish we were wrong” part. I have a fair share of sleepless nights where my thoughts are “What exactly is existance?”, “Do I really exist?” and “Are my thoughts even real?”. If I were wrong about athiesim and believed in religion, then these thoughts wouldn’t bug me, but because of the way I am and because of the ammount of thinking I have done on the subject of god(s) and religion, I know that they cannot be real.

  33. Mike on November 18th, 2008 at 4:39 am

    As a Christian who believes in God and the Bible to be God’s word, I find this article hardly helpful in terms of converting an atheist person. If God is not real and Christianity is just all baloney, then this article would definitely apply not only to Christians vs. Atheist, but any kind of battle of ideologies if we just generalize the concepts here a bit.

    But if a Christian and an Atheist were to get together and consider the possibility that God might be real and the Bible true, then it changes the whole game. One thing I want to make clear is that true, genuine conversion is not through persuasive arguments, paradigm/worldview changes, or debunking your logic, but God’s intervention in convicting the nonbeliever of their sin, His mercy in allowing that person to come to God through belief in Jesus Christ, and God’s kindness in giving us all the different gifts we receive as Christians. Of course, God honors Christians with the privilege of conveying this message to nonbelievers, but ultimately, it is not merely winning an argument that people come to believe.
    1 Cor 2:4-5 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, so that your faith might not rest on men’s wisdom, but on God’s power.

    Concerning why Christians do debate and discuss philosophy/logic/other arguments with people, why in my opinion should be the proper motive of getting into heady conversations with people is to love and serve them. Here’s what I mean: Some people are genuinely stuck in their disbelief of God. Before they can even consider what Jesus had done for them on the cross, they demand that certain questions be answered. As an act of love and service, Christians try to remove those stumbling blocks. So to reference back to this article and conclude my ranting (of love and service to you all :) ), type 1 and 2 Atheists may welcome this clearing of stumbling blocks, whereas type 3 Atheists may choose to reject this act of service. This is fine, because if the Christian’s motive is proper, no thanks or repayment or obligation of the Atheists conversion was ever needed in the first place.

  34. Luci on November 18th, 2008 at 10:41 am

    I wholeheartedly agree. Actually I find it very offensive when believers assume we don’t know enough, and thus try to teach us about religion. It did not come easy, as we have to change everything we believed in and used as a crutch for some time, often a very long time. Then we have to “come out” to our family and friends, which often means committing social suicide.

  35. Oh The Stupidity on November 18th, 2008 at 10:21 pm

    Well done.  I’ve seen other attempts at categorizing the genesis (ha) of an atheist, but this was very well presented.

    As a CAT3 atheist, you may not realize the difference between your mindset and that of us lifelong CAT 1/2 atheists.  Namely, we tend to be bewildered that so many otherwise intelligent people believe such utter nonsense.

    If I met someone and they earnestly told me they believed in the true existence of the Greek gods, I would not think of them any differently than I do modern theists.  In either case, it is so astonishingly clear that it is man-made rubbish that to believe in it defies comprehension.

    Again, well-written post.

  36. Marcus Harman on November 20th, 2008 at 3:55 pm

    Thanks for a well reasoned and superbly communicated article.  As much as I abhor labels, I suppose that under your schema  I’m a cat 3 athiest.  My falling  out from under the spell of religion was a  particularly traumatic experience as I realised that everyone I ever cared about would cease to exist at some point, as would I.  Even more disturbing was the realisation that the whole human race is certifiably insane.  This was only marginally relieved by the counterpoint that every single rabid asshole I have encountered or will encounter will eventually disintegrate into oblivion too.  Eventually I managed to find some peace without God and believe it or not I’m happier as a practicing athiest.  To cut a long story short, my motto has become:

    God is imaginary.  Get over it.

  37. Cora on November 20th, 2008 at 11:59 pm

    Such a good article. 

    I left the Mormons after 25 years.   There’s no way to explain that arduous journey — and the resulting LIBERATION! –  to a Christian.  The Christians who’ve responded to this article have demonstrated this point by sharing their inability to engage in rational discourse.  (Yeah, I’ve heard every fallacy in the book used to prove God).

    I used to have a joyous belief in Santa too.  It occurred to me at about 7 that it wasn’t possible for Santa to be real.  I tried to put those thoughts out of my head and retain the lovely “belief” but, once it’s gone, it’s gone for good!  I think religious belief is the same.  Once a person realizes that “There is no God” answers far more questions, far more accurately, than “I believe, I believe, I believe…” ever can, there’s no turning back.  In fact, there’s no wanting to!

    Being an Ex-Mormon in a family of Mormons for 2 decades has been hell.  One day, they’ll learn that I’m actually much worse than they realize: I’m a CATEGORY 3 ATHEIST ! ! !

  38. Simple Meditation on November 22nd, 2008 at 12:52 am

    Excellent content and style…keep up the good work!

  39. Yvette on November 25th, 2008 at 9:10 pm

    How incredibly true this article is!

  40. Moiz Khan on November 25th, 2008 at 9:18 pm

    I really enjoyed this article, and through my experience of herding cats (started a freethought club at my university) this is very true, as I have encountered many atheists, and all of them fall into one of these categories.

    Personally I fall into the 3rd, though, I am in slight disagreement with the notion that we “wish we wrong.” I think my mortality gives meaning to my life that immortality wouldn’t. I would go as far as saying that immortality would be a curse.

  41. postsimian on November 26th, 2008 at 3:13 pm

    Very, very nicely written.  Don’t worry about what the detractors say.  They’re bullshit artists, plain and simple.  The jackass who thinks there are two categories of atheists, for instance, apparently doesn’t recognize the importance of the debate.  The reason can only be that he either doesn’t know or is incapable of comprehending the negative impact religion has on society, which completely justifies the necessity of the debate. 

    Good article, sir.  Keep it coming.

  42. Glenn on November 30th, 2008 at 12:11 am

    I’m a 50 year old atheist as of 2000 and I think you forgot
    one significant category, namely people who were brought
    up in a mainstream christian church, like methodist or
    lutheran (like me), knowing very little about fundamentalists but, thinking that belief in god must be a
    good thing, marries a fundamentalist.  Then after 14 years of marriage and immersion in doctrinally sound
    churches coming to the conclusion that it’s all a
    load of hooey.  I think this one hurts a lot more than your category #3.  all the best  GD

  43. Joy on December 11th, 2008 at 7:42 pm

    I’m a cat 1 and 3 combo.  Growing up cat 1 in the Bible Belt, I wanted so desperately to fit in that I tried to be Christian. First, I was confirmed in my parents’ original religion (Catholicism) at my university. Then, on a return to the Bible Belt, fell in with protestants, would “fall away” and keep trying to return. Kept getting reconverted until finally I was diagnosed with a deadly cancer.  When I realized that I didn’t care whether there was life after death or not, but was rather grateful for the life I’d had, and had a sense of needing to make the best of what was left…

    Well, I realized I’d been trying to fit in with humanity all these years, as is natural, and that a god was unnecessary. I was very lucky to have had a good enough life to feel this way. Now, instead of fitting in with humans, too, I seek to be good, and to make good use of my little time left. (I’m doing well, in fact, I just mean that any human has precious little time left.) 

    When I realized I didn’t fear oblivion as much as I feared the hatred of Christian people, it all just felt like nonsense to me.  I’ll die and be gone.  I’m glad to be alive now.

  44. Joy on December 11th, 2008 at 8:03 pm

    I know that my above response is a bit garbled. I’d meant to edit better, but I very unsuccessfully tried to multitask: helping my 6 year old with her homework, wash dishes, and keep coming back to the post! Anyway, shorter me: after years of trying to read everything and think my way into believing in God because everyone else seemed to, I just realized i didn’t need to, I’m a grownup, and I do the loving around here until my services are no longer needed. <g>

  45. Ed on December 11th, 2008 at 8:10 pm

    Joy,

    I am a Christian and I don’t hate you.

    I have a question and you don’t have to answer it if you don’t want to.  I don’t want you to feel uncomfortable or bring up any bad memories.

    But when you were trying to be a Christian, did you ever feel a connection with God?  Did He ever touch you, perhaps during a time of worship?
    Ed

  46. Ed on December 11th, 2008 at 9:02 pm

    How could a loving God threaten to send the crown jewel of His creation, Man, to burn in a Lake of Fire for eternity?

    Who would want to serve a God like that?

    I would like to post my thoughts on the subject this Monday.  Please feel free to offer your constructive criticism.  Perhaps you will convert me:)

  47. Mark on December 11th, 2008 at 10:52 pm

    Ed,

    I’m not sure who you are asking this of. I’m far beyond debating what’s contained in the Bible. My view of the Bible is that it’s a collection of stories written by ancient tribal cultures. There is virtually no historical validity to the Bible. It was written and re-written by too many authors over too many centuries to be taken seriously.

    So, with that, you can imagine that I lend no credence to concepts of heaven or hell. They are concepts dreamed up by a superstitious culture trying to make sense of their difficult existence.

    I’m not sure where you are writing this piece either. In my comments?

    Anyway, take care of yourself, Ed.
    ~Mark

  48. Grabovsky on December 14th, 2008 at 12:14 am

    I am cat#3.
    I am currently in the process of de-conversion. I have spent the last 4 months trying to rid myself of the delusion of christianity, and am finding it very difficult. This has helped me realize why it has been so hard. Thanks.

  49. Ed on December 15th, 2008 at 10:49 pm

    Mark,

    The concept of eternal judgment was one that I had a tough time with and took me 2-3 years of research, study, prayer and the death of a friend to come to terms with.  I was going to summarize my findings for you but as you say, you’ve formed your own opinions and have set your course.

    At the risk of saying something you’ve already heard, allow me to just make a couple of comments and then I’ll try to leave you and your readers alone.

    First, the Gospel can be proven.  Jesus said in Jn 7.16-17:  “My teaching is not mine but his who sent me.  Anyone who resolves to do the will of God will know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own.”

    Now I realize you don’t believe this and that you doubt the veracity of Scripture.  I’ll just say that if God can create the universe which is 13-14 billion years old and over 100 billion light years in diameter, I’m simple enough to believe He can get me a copy of His book.  (http://www.reasons.org)

    Second and most importantly, what separates Christianity from every other religion is that it is not merely a system of tenets or beliefs but an intimate relationship with the Living God.  Jesus instructed His disciples that greatness in His Kingdom was found through the humility of a child.

    What I’m saying Mark is that if at some point you (or any of your readers) decide that perhaps there is more to life’s end than ceasing to exist; and you’d like to satisfy that annoying intermittent cry of your heart for a relationship with a Heavenly Father (which I applaud your transparency for sharing), here’s the promise:

    None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them.  He 8.11

    Ok, everyone can get their bottles and rocks and start chucking them now:)

    Take care Mark.

  50. Ed on December 15th, 2008 at 10:58 pm

    (I must have screwed up the link somehow.  The http://www.reasons.org site is active in case anyone’s interested.)

  51. Mark on December 18th, 2008 at 7:35 pm

    Ed,

    First, the Gospel can be proven.  Jesus said in Jn 7.16-17:  “My teaching is not mine but his who sent me.  Anyone who resolves to do the will of God will know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own.”

    I have said that the Bible is unproven and you respond by telling me to read and believe in the Bible and it will be proven to me? That’s not evidence, Ed – that’s faith. I do not base my life on faith of things that have no evidence

    …you’d like to satisfy that annoying intermittent cry of your heart for a relationship with a Heavenly Father (which I applaud your transparency for sharing)…

    Where did I say that? All I said was that we sometimes wish we were wrong about our mortality. I have no desire for the relationship you speak of. I am a grown man who is very happy with the relationships I have with real-live human beings.

    We’re a universe apart, Ed.

  52. postsimian on December 19th, 2008 at 2:51 pm

    Ed — you do realize that many of us were Christians before, right?  You’re not exactly sharing anything new.

  53. Ed on December 19th, 2008 at 8:19 pm

    Hey Mark,

    It’s paradoxical, but I guess what I’m trying to say is that the bible is testable.  And if / when it passes your test, the resultant confidence or faith becomes your evidence.

    Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.  He 11.1

    Let me clarify my other comment.  I was referring to when you said, “I found myself reacquainted with that frightened little voice in my head that yearned for a sort of parental comfort and protection from the perceived demons of the world.”  I had the exact same feeling when my son was diagnosed with Graves.  The natural instinctive response is to utilize every conceivable resource for the treatment of your son.

    I believe that is a universal response when any of us encounters life’s difficulties.  He’s proven Himself to me, when I was 8 years old and my Dad left us and today, 40 years later, running a business, challenged by the local economy in Detroit.

    Yes we’re a universe apart.  But that might not be as far as you think.  “He measured Heaven with the width of His Hand” Is 40.12  In other words, God managing the universe is like you or I packing a snowball.

    Here’s a link to Canadian astrophysicist Dr Hugh Ross explaining the scientific approach he used to evaluate the credibility of the various world religions and his discovery of the scientific method outlined in Genesis 1(from about the 2:00 minute mark of the video clip to about 9:00.)
    http://www.leestrobel.com/videoserver/video.php?clip=CCNT1727

    Peace,
    Ed

  54. Ed on December 19th, 2008 at 8:24 pm

    Postsimian,
    If you don’t mind me asking, what was it about your Christian experience that turned you off?

  55. Mark on December 19th, 2008 at 8:46 pm

    Ed,

    I’m very familiar with Lee Strobel. He is extremely under-whelming. I’d write more but this link will do a much better job explaining what I think of him.

  56. Ed on December 19th, 2008 at 11:34 pm

    Mark,

    I had never heard of Strobel until I Googled seeking a link to the Ross video.  It sounds like he promotes more hype than substance.  I happen to like Ross’s use of probability calculations determing the likelihood of dozens of specific life-sustaining characteristics of the universe randomly ocurring.

    I thought Kush K brought up some valid questions.  I’m going to think about them for a couple of days and try to offer a credible response.

    Have to take care of the day to day stuff as well.

    Thanks.

  57. Mark on December 19th, 2008 at 11:35 pm

    Wow. This is video is worse than Strobel’s stuff.

  58. postsimian on December 19th, 2008 at 11:51 pm

    Ed:  It’s important to note that what turned me off to Christianity actually had nothing to do with Christians.  I traded in my faith for evidence and abandoned the mystical for reason.  Evidence to the contrary is what ultimately turned me off. 

    If you’re talking about my experience as a Christian, well, I tried really hard to believe, tried really hard to do “be more Christ-like” and tried super-duper hard to bond with other Christians.  What I discovered was that no matter how much I wanted to believe, to many things were inconsistent and, let’s be honest, you can’t force yourself to believe something you don’t believe in.  I tried being more Christ-like only to be out-Jesused by holier-than-thou Christians.  Apparently raising your hands while singing and babbling nonsense talk makes one holier.  It was really a non-stop pissing contest.  Finally, no matter how hard I tried to identify with other Christians, despite my doubts, the hypocrisy of acknowledging a belief in Jesus coupled with a blatant disregard for his teachings gave me an associative distaste for other believers.

  59. Ed on December 20th, 2008 at 6:00 am

    Mark,

    Yes that one seems to be a folksy, watered-down-for-lay people “personal testimony”.  I’ll see if I can find a short clip of a more technical discussion.

  60. Ed on December 20th, 2008 at 6:42 am

    Postsimian,
    I hear ya, well put.  And I truly admire your efforts.

    You raise legitimate issues.  Rather than make a couple of “off the cuff” comments, I need a couple of days to consider the dynamics of your experience.  Your points are valid and obviously not uncommon.
    I’ll try to offer a meaningful response.  Obviously, if the answers were easy, this web site probably wouldn’t exist.

    I’ve got a son coming home from his university today so it will probably be early next week.

    Ed

  61. Ed on December 20th, 2008 at 7:00 am

    (I just noticed I hit you with a “double-obviously”.  As a hockey fan, I’ve often chuckled during player interviews at the ability of some players to work 4 or 5 into a 4 or 5 sentence response.)

  62. Ed on December 20th, 2008 at 7:14 am

    Mark,

    By the way, nice web site.  While we disagree on just about everything, I’ve got to say it’s really well organized.

  63. Joy on December 20th, 2008 at 7:11 pm

    Hi Ed,
    I get busy and haven’t been back, but I see your question. Truly, if I felt I’d connected with GOD, I’d still be a believer. What I felt connected with were the sweet people who wanted human connection, and to have a sense of there being a reason for things. It was they who touched me, or ticked me off, just like people do in every day life.  God was this strange being I had to talk about and believe in in order to be with my fellows.  I like the people. We’re far from perfect, but I like my journey, stresses, letdowns and all.  It all just makes more sense not trying to imagine that there’s this odd invisible being with mean crazy rules delivered in quaint ways (burning bushes??? ) that everyone argues about. 

    But I understand people who’ve had a horrible life, and don’t stand to see improvement must get substantial comfort from the idea that happiness will come some day.  I honor their craving for a hope of comfort and happiness, and I wish I had more power and ability to share my luck in this life. I have tried and will not stop trying. Well, time to clean, do my budget, so I can see what is left to share with my selected charities. And to write some letters to loved ones I know. :-)

  64. Chalmer on December 21st, 2008 at 5:32 pm

    The one that irritates me the most is Pascal’s wager.

  65. Joy on December 28th, 2008 at 7:37 pm

    Chalmer, it bugs the heck out of me, too.  

  66. deletedSoul on January 15th, 2009 at 9:24 pm

    I am certainly a cat3. I walked away from faith about 2 1/2 years ago. The biggest issue I have struggled with since my de-conversion is mortality, but I am working on it. It is comforting to stumble across blogs like your and know that there are others fighting with the same issues . It helps make for a very happy heathen. :)

  67. sabra on January 17th, 2009 at 4:27 am

    First of all, thank you for writing this article. I am a firm believer in God but have friends who are athiests and am generally intereted in knowing the mindset of a person who doesn’t believe in God, you know, what brought them to it and why. I specifically think the three categories were interesting cuz frankly speaking from the view point of others, i had only heard that athiests were non-believers of only one sort, but of course i didn’t believe that. Now, just to set one thing straight, speaking for myself as a believer, not all believers are stupid enough to stereotype athiests, like i said i have a really intelligent, rational friend and this person is an athiest of Cat #3. It would be like saying all believers are good people.Ha ha. The hard part is finding out who really is a believer in practice, not just words. Unfortunately many people are like that. (By my usage of believing, i mean believing in God). Another important thing: As a believer in God i think one of the most stupid things possible is to try to convert everyone else. I hate all the bullshit and arrogane of the people who claim to “have the privelage” of knowing God and being chosen and all that crap. Sorry. but it’s bullshit. First of all, who said who have the right to do so? Who said you know the right religion to preach it? Secondly, there’s a saying from the Qu’ran i believe in: this is the translation: “There is no force in religion”. meaning you can’t force anyone to believe in anything. We were given minds to think people, and if we need sb to tell us what’s right, that would undermine our intelligence as capable human beings. I firmly believe that believing or disbelieving in anything will only really be fruitful and longlasting if you experience and come to it yourself. or else you’ll always just copy borrowed ideas without actually believing in them, like hand me down clothes: they’re your but they’re not really yours, get what i’m saying?
    That was just to set the record straight from my own side.

  68. Neece on January 17th, 2009 at 12:59 pm

    This is excellent. As a cat 3 atheist, I can totally relate. The only thing is, I don’t think I really wish I was wrong so much, because most gods are really awful and I’d hate to have to worship that kind of cruel petty tyrant for all eternity. Other than that I am with you all the way with this post. Thanks very much. Thumbs up!

  69. trevor on January 22nd, 2009 at 9:07 pm

    I notice alot of people miss religion casue it is easier to just believe, and its a source of comfort  . To me tho i would just ask why is easier better .Isnt a fascinating universe around us , and a intresting life thats its are job to figure out (merely casue of the fact that were here ) a hell of a lot more rewarding then easy ?

  70. Jessica on February 24th, 2009 at 8:11 am

    I am a category 3, also. It seems many people are, telling from the comments, but I don’t seem to meet many others like me. I stumbled upon this page and I’m glad I did.

    The way I was raised, religion was life. Everyone I knew was like my family because I was homeschooled and very sheltered until 6th grade. The more I learned in “real school,” the more I had to revise my faith to try to fit logic. Finally I realized it would never fit, and of course I recognized the superiority of logic and rationality. I have to say that deconversion really is like mourning the death of a loved one. I still sing the songs when I need comfort, just because they remind me of my childhood, not because I believe the content.

    Sometimes I wish I’d taken the blue pill. I’m scared to die, and I also miss the community and this deep sense of oneness with the people around me that I haven’t felt since I left the church. I wish I could have that sense of community with fellow atheists, fellow deconverts.

  71. oddinnuendo on February 26th, 2009 at 9:48 pm

    Cat #3 atheist here I guess. I grew up in a Muslim family but always questioned what my parents believed in.

  72. spriggig on February 28th, 2009 at 9:24 pm

    Apparently, it’s virtually a one-way street. Plenty of people hop the fences between religions, but once they get over the wall and completely out of Delusion City, it seems almost no one goes back. That’d be like “rediscovering Santa Claus” at age thirty.

    http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/conversion_asymmetry.html

  73. Sam on March 1st, 2009 at 8:03 am

    I’m a category 3. I guess I never really questioned it until about three or four years ago. In the Catholic school system I guess they just push it as much as they can. I went back to my primary school for a graduation ceremony for my younger sister, and you wouldn’t believe the amount of times they mention God – something like 60 times in a 50 minute ceremony. I guess this is why religion is so hard to shake for some of us – it’s just drilled into us from day one.
    Reminds me of Brave New World – “62,400 repetitions make one truth.”

  74. Pablo on March 1st, 2009 at 3:34 pm

    I’m not really in any of those categories – I was sorta brought up by an agnostic dad and I don’t know what my mom was, so I suppose I’d be somewhere between a 1 and a 2. But religion never really played a part in my life. And I find it incredibly stupid.

    I actually know a chick who was atheist, and then converted back to Christianity for some reason. When I asked her why, she said she just felt this sort of “warmth in her heart” – like she knew God was the answer. Anyone have any thoughts about that? I saw someone mention that once people “leave Delusion City, they usually never come back”, so I just posted this here to give an example.

  75. The More You Know... on March 1st, 2009 at 10:59 pm

    This is a great topic – and I suspect many people would be surprised by number of category three athiests there are out there.
    I never felt a strong tie to religion, but I frequented a christian church for the better part of my life, that’d be about my first 13 years.
    When I graduated and went to college, I started thinking more actively about my life and what I wanted out of it. Through this, I of course held the internal debate about the illogical paradox that is faith. To add to it, my roommate converted overnight from apathy to christianity and has never looked back. He threw all of the pitches at me, come on down and check it out…yada yada. I couldn’t comprehend how he didn’t see through the irrational notions of faith.
    Then the next year my best friend from high school converted from apathy to hard core devotion to god. He’s still my best friend, and we’re close as hell, but we can never arrive to agreement on the issue. Luckily he doesn’t flair up when I test his faith, he works towards a rational argument in defense, and I’ve got to give him credit for it. He’s yet to convince me though.

    Everyone should discuss religion more actively, apathetic people towards spirituality and metaphysics is what’s holding us back from the next level of humanity.

  76. Olivia on March 2nd, 2009 at 12:29 am

    category #3. i spent months making my decision. when you realize that the reality you’ve known might be entirely false its a bit of a shock. everything i was taught, everything i based my life around was being compromised. but now that ive made my decision and shed those beliefs, i feel like i can live for me. i can be me. i don’t think ive ever been so content with any other decision ive made in my entire life. and after i researched it, and honestly looked at the facts it made so much sense, i don’t know how i could have ever been so blind.

  77. Linus Bern on March 2nd, 2009 at 11:08 am

    I like how you have developed a sectarian framework for atheism.  But as a member of the A2, or apathetic sect I take great exception to you suggesting the theists pester us.  That is what we we have come to expect from members of the Dissonant Atheist sect, (who it should be mentioned follow the false path to atheism)

  78. Alsee on March 2nd, 2009 at 7:41 pm

    I don’t think I quite fit in any of those three categories. To give my category a title, I think I’d call it “No fertile ground” atheist. The seeds of religion just never managed to take any root in my brain. As far back as I can remember my only reaction to any of the religious stuff was….. complete and utter boredom. The word “God” never had any more meaning to me than annoyance that I was going to have to sit there waiting while the adults did their pointless traditions and recited their meaningless prayers. Sometimes I’d have to read the prayers too – it would have been more interesting and more meaningful to me to read the chemical-ingredient list off a package of Twinkies. My parents even attempted to send me to religious school on the weekends, but THAT didn’t last long. I think I quickly made it clear just how boring and annoying I found it, and they let me quit.

  79. Andrew on March 4th, 2009 at 8:33 am

    My journey to atheism began when i was young, and without any help.  I started realizing there was something wrong with the dogma i was being fed about 4 th grade, where my teacher told me that the man who created the theory of primordial soup was the devil himself.  After that pieces of my faith started disappearing as my rationality chipped away at it over time.  By the time i was in high school i was fully an atheist.

    This article, for me, helped me remember my internal struggle over this subject, I’m glad it helped me remember that discovering atheism was not an easy path.

  80. Sara on March 9th, 2009 at 11:44 pm

    I also do not fit into any of the categories. My mother’s family are all atheists, my fathers are heavily christian. My mom is agnostic, my father believed for a while that he was god. I searched for meaning as a kid, and with the support of my mother, I dabbled in (and studied intensely) most of the worlds major religions and some strange and minor ones. Eventually I settled into atheism, both for the logic of it all and because I find solace in our morality and the temporary nature of our existance.
    But I guess that is the nature of lists. They are never all inclusive.

  81. Philosophidian on April 11th, 2009 at 7:48 am

    I’m a cat #2, but there is nothing weak or apathetic about my atheism.  My father’s entire family (I have 20 first cousins, so it’s a BIG family) are frothing-at-the-mouth southern Baptists, so I had a lot of pressure from zygote up, but it never REALLY took. I guess I might have believed by default for a while, not knowing that non-belief was an option. 

    But believe me, there is no argument strong enough to convince me to abandon reason for nonsense.

    Category #2′s are not all wishy-washy fence-sitters.

  82. DeafAtheist on April 13th, 2009 at 3:03 am

    After reading this I wonder what category the likes of people such as C. S. Lewis, and Lee Strobel who claim to have been former atheists turned theists and how the could have abandoned reson and logic for superstitious belief?

    What makes an atheist abandon logic for faith? What makes them decide that superstition is more intellectually palatable than common sense? How strongly did they feel about their position before (re)converting? Were they wishy-washy about it or were their convictions strong?

  83. Fergus on April 21st, 2009 at 1:23 pm

    I’d say I’m a category #1, and thankfully the only experience of belief I have is from when I was about six years old, and my mother told me about how in medieval times pretty much everyone in Britain was Christian. I then misunderstood her words horribly and spent about a year thinking that it was illegal to not believe in god. What really annoys me is now when christians profess to know my exact thoughts and feelings on belief.

    Surely, when such a tiny amount of (probably circumstantial) evidence supports superstitious belief, it’s only natural not to believe?

  84. Sarx on May 9th, 2009 at 9:21 pm

    My usual response to an atheist is “Ah” and that’s about it, unless they want to have a conversation. For most atheists of cat 3 especially, I find that conversation to be very similar in style to a conversation I would have with a hyper-religious person. They start in on  my beliefs, my intelligence level (an immediate violation of logic which they claim to have mastered better than anyone else) which usually winds up with a withering counterattack on their own hypocrisy. You see, the irony is that militant (or dissonant as you call them) atheists frequently vigorously and loudly confess to detesting dogma, proselytizing, judgmentalism, etc, and claim theists (Christians in particular) are the most guilty of these things (not saying the many Christians, in particular, are not guilty of that, b/c many are). They then proceed to do the very same thing of which they complain.  Atheists can be just as dogmatic as anyone else. Fine, you don’t believe in God. Why do you care so much that I do?  (Not throwing those out in this forum, really, but that’s something that sometimes comes up.)

    Furthermore, when you get into the arena of trying to legislate against religion or religious activity or in some way influence the public arena of ideas, you are now just as guilty as any theist who is trying to do the same thing (aka, the “Christian Right” or Muslims with Sharia law, etc).  It’s hard to profess hating the above things, and then trying to frame things in such a way to show one isn’t doing that.  Like most religions (Democrat, Republican, Christian, Muslim, Atheist) these types of articles usually are just preaching to the choir; facts are irrelevant.

    The good conversations are always quite amazing. My usual experience (and what I read above) is the vast majority is a reaction against perceived mistreatment in a church (mostly) and very little understanding of what I believe.  When cordial and polite, those kinds of conversations are stimulating and enjoyable.  I don’t really participate in throwing fireballs (e.g. “You’re going to burn!! countered by the atheist “You’re an idiot!!”).

  85. joesmith (really) on August 30th, 2009 at 10:40 pm

    Bravo. Superb piece. I’ve only adopted the atheist label within the last couple of years and am solidly in category #3 — ONLY after childhood in a Baptist church and 20+ adult years of searching & researching all manner of religions. It’s been a “soul” searching journey and intellectual pursuit that hasn’t been easy, but I wouldn’t trade what I’ve learned about life — and how much more I’ve come to appreciate this one & only life — for an infinity of gods and heavens (or hells).

  86. Mj on December 31st, 2009 at 7:14 pm

    What the?  Who the?  What type of link is that?

  87. Bookwrm87 on March 19th, 2010 at 12:10 am

    I’d probably fit easiest into cat#2, but I will never be converted because I don’t care one way or the other. Religion never appealed to me, and so by default, I was an atheist.

  88. James Smith João Pessoa, Brazil on April 23rd, 2010 at 8:30 am

    As an atheists since I as 13, I have heard it all in such tedious repetition that I quickly become disgusted with the irrational and silly arguments of all theists. They like to tell atheists to “Just shut up” So I say to them, “Stop insulting my intelligence and start using some of your own.” Yes, that’s a bit rude, but so are they.

    Religion has been getting a free pass to everything for far to long. It’s long past time to start taxing them like any other business and start demanding that they take responsibility for their behavior. That means showing some respect for others and keeping their abhorrent beliefs to themselves instead of constantly enacting them into laws for everyone.

  89. Michael on July 4th, 2010 at 1:50 am

    I think the “wishing we were wrong” thing is much less common than you make it sound. I’ve never wished it, and I find it quite rare among cat 1 and 3 atheists, and as you stated, cat 2 just doesn’t give a shit. Hitchens and Dawkins don’t wish for it, and often state how great a thing it is that it is not true. I don’t recall Harris ever giving me the impression that he wished for it, Julia Sweeney speaks of a brief period of depression coinciding with her deconversion, but it passed. I think the more you learn about religion, the less you wish for it to be true.

  90. meh on August 26th, 2010 at 7:30 pm

    i was number 2 my family wasn’t that religious but i studied the fuck out of it first so #2 & 3 but when i came out to my family all of a sudden it was a big deal and they were asking arguments that aren’t even related to the subject whatsoever

  91. Nuno on November 13th, 2010 at 12:14 pm

    I did like ur categorization. Of course, as with any other categorization, soon people notice the gaps and tend to broad the criteria (even suggest a few more categories, as one can see from the comments). That’s only natural but, in the end, you may find that some are just sub-categories. Anyway, there’s one thing I think your categories lack: The inclusion criteria are to much focused on external factors, rather than internal ones – since we are refering to atheism, an explicit “internal” stance, it would be much more proficuous to focus on that. You don’t even need to change that much – all that you refer to as external factors (parents, shool, friends, whatever) just needs to be seen from a phenomenological point of view – it doesn’t matter that much if your parents are catholic or atheists, if none of that is “internalized” in your mind. For instance, the fact that your parents are atheists doesn’t mean necessarily that, when it comes to faith, they represent a model on the issue. Due to a friend or some other relative, one can find that he fits best to #3. By making the categories more internal-focused, one can avoid a certain deterministic sense in purelly contextual factors and turn to the more important stuff – why did this person, from a subjective (as in relative to the “subject”) perspective became an atheist? Also (and I’m still trying to make my mind on this: indeed the path to atheism seems to be a one way road; however, it’s also true that one tends to rethink the issue once in a while), there’s no reason to picture the categories as static – I could point some moments in my life when I felt more like one category than another and vice-versa (not as in becoming an atheist, but as an atheist going over what drove me to that and reinterpreting some life events) – Once again, that depends only on some kind of internal conflict, independent of its source (maybe I had an interesting conversation or read something) which, moreover, happens to be dynamic.
    Anyway, I do recognize that all this is secundary to your discussion since the main point was how believers approach you and how easilly they do that with some kind pre-assumptions. Kudos for that! ;)

    Nuno
    November 13th, 2010 at 12:22 pm

    Sorry for the double post, but it only tells how much appealing, in a food-for-thought way, your text is! ;)
    I’m thinking that, even more, your categories imply, even if only implicitly, both an internal state of affairs as well as a general external attitude towards an argument. Incidentally, they don’t need to coincide: My guess is that a #2 atheist can argument as a #3 one (or any other combination for that matter). Here, as well as with any other kind of discussion, the determinant happens to be your own interlocutor.
    Anyway, just kind of thinking aloud here :P

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